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  • #31
    Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
    well. would you deny that the efforts to make holocaust museume in the US are going beyond the ecudation part, but to feed the insutry that uses the memory of the holocaust to terrorise anyone into helping israel (in the US).

    there are more holocaust museums in the US than in europe, when obviously not a single jew was musrdered in the US by the nazis...

    it's not about education (education on the holocaust is important) but it's about political terror. any you know what. it's ok for pro-israel lobbies to do it. they fight for their home team. nohing bad about that.

    my main point was to say that the US was not as pro israel in the 70s than now.

    anyways, it's off topic.
    No. I won't denay it, not because it's true or not, simply because I don't know enough about it.
    My bet anyway would be that it's done simply to quite up the conscience of those who feel they need to.

    I agree with the other point anyway, the US was not as supportive back than as they are today. I don't think it has anything to do with lobbyists, I think it has more to do with US interests at the region and in the world.

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    • #32
      oh, me too. it's 90% US interests and 10% lobby. I was trying to explain (a little) that 10%.

      good we didn't get mixed up.

      back to '73!
      "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Golani View Post
        I'm not an expert for the Israeli lobby in the U.S, but since back than US-Israeli relations were still in it's diapers, if find it hard to believe.
        Wasn't Henry Kissenger, Secretary of State then? What about Operation Nickel Grass? One-third of the foreign aid went to Israel. Didn't look like diapers to me.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by craven View Post
          The one thing I do not see people discussing is the fact that Israel air force would of destroyed any move beyond the SAM envelop...
          It was hinted at in one or two of the posts. I asumed it as a given and comment not needed

          Originally posted by Golani View Post
          On that note, there is a myth saying the only reason we stopped our rapid advance to Damascus and Cairo is because the USSR threatened to nuke us...
          Just for clarity. what were the reasons for not continuing the attack to Damascus. I no longer have refrences on this point at hand and would rather not misspeak on this.

          Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
          well, in the 60's and 70's the pro-Israel lobby was not yet very strong - rememebr how most people did not even know the extent of the holocaust, etc. (while now, it's in every school book, etc. and there are holocaust museums in almost every town, lol). .
          I was a teen ager & young adult in those days and can say that the Holocaust was well understood. A museum would have been a bit redundant in those days as there were so many people at hand who had either lived thru it in Europe, or witnessed the last days of it as they liberated Europe. In my small home town there were more than a dozen men who had along with my father had seen the end of it as they overran Germany. I did not have to go much further than the next town to meet t survivors of the labor camps and death camps. We did not refer to it as the "Holocaust" in the 1950s or 60s. I dont recall that term used until the 1970s, when books specializing in the subject became common.

          Originally posted by apteryx View Post
          The U.S. did what it could without physically intervening - but that wasn't necessary. If it was then I'm sure the States would have intervened - even in the midst of the Vietnam War. The strength of the Israeli lobby is such in the States that Israel is considered a core interest.
          My take from memory of the era is competition with the USSR was the motivation that drew Pres Nixon & his advisors to support Isreal against what they saw as Soviet client states. Israel had some influence in the US government but it was secondary to the focus on the Cold War within the Nixon government. US connections to Arab states are not waved about in public in the same way as the Israel connection. The support of a anti Communist faction in Kuwait in 1970-71 is nearly forgotton. During the 1950s the US had strong ties to Egypt, that were lost during the Nasser era, & restored gradually during and after Anwar Sadats Presidency. Some folks will argue that the Saudi Royal family has developed a more influential lobby in the US than Isreal.

          The Israelis have had their share of political sucess in the US, but I cant see them as dominating US forigen policy. Of course my Arab & Muslim accquaintances think otherwise
          Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 29 Nov 08, 21:24.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by apteryx View Post
            Wasn't Henry Kissenger, Secretary of State then? What about Operation Nickel Grass? One-third of the foreign aid went to Israel. Didn't look like diapers to me.
            Yes, he was, funny thing is he gave us no advantage, just more trouble...

            He may have been Jewish, but was also very anti-Zionist.

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            • #36
              And on the note, I have officialy lost interest in my own thread.

              Im gonna try something new here....

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              • #37
                Oh! Were we off topic!

                Well before the lights are turned out can I have a answer to the question about Why the Irsrali Defense force stopped short of Damascus in 1973?

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                  Oh! Were we off topic!

                  Well before the lights are turned out can I have a answer to the question about Why the Irsrali Defense force stopped short of Damascus in 1973?
                  After passing throught the bottleneck of the Golan heights, they would have had to fan out into the Syrian heartland. They could have taken the city, but then what?

                  Besides, they were playing the political game too, and doing rather well at it.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                    Oh! Were we off topic!

                    Well before the lights are turned out can I have a answer to the question about Why the Irsrali Defense force stopped short of Damascus in 1973?

                    they were smarter than the US in IRaq - NEVER occupy an arab land.. it's a tar pit.

                    oh, wrong, they did it in 1948 with success and in 1967 with less success but are still holding it. let me rephrase. NEVER occupy arab urban area or mountains without first ethicly cleansing the place.
                    "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                      Oh! Were we off topic!

                      Well before the lights are turned out can I have a answer to the question about Why the Irsrali Defense force stopped short of Damascus in 1973?
                      Wasn't it because the Soviets phoned up the Americans and made enough rude noises that Washington yanked on the Israeli leash?

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
                        they were smarter than the US in IRaq - NEVER occupy an arab land.. it's a tar pit.

                        oh, wrong, they did it in 1948 with success and in 1967 with less success but are still holding it. let me rephrase. NEVER occupy arab urban area or mountains without first ethicly cleansing the place.
                        Bad exampels,we never occupied an arab land nor did we ever take part in an ethnic cleanse (that is, not as the victims of one...)

                        Another big reason for stopping short of Damascus is the Irqi division showing up on the southern flank.

                        Of course most of the responsibility goes to the Soviets, like someone said here before.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by DingBat View Post
                          Wasn't it because the Soviets phoned up the Americans and made enough rude noises that Washington yanked on the Israeli leash?
                          That was working both ways. As I wrote earlier both the US & USSR were preparing to intervene, against each other rather than against the Arab nations or Israel. Oct 1973 was one of the moments nuclear war was close to erupting. Fortunatly a agreement was reached.
                          Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 04 Dec 08, 20:43.

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