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What if Muhammad lost?

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  • What if Muhammad lost?

    And when I mean Muhammad I mean the prophet Muhammad. What do you think would have happend if he had lost to the people of Mecca? Would Islam itself no longer exist?

  • #2
    Would Islam itself no longer exist?

    Nice idea, and the world would be a better place... perhaps.

    Maybe there would have been a very long cold/hot/cold war between the Byzantines and the Persians, lasting into the Mongol invasions?

    The crusades opened up Europe to the wider world. Would they have gone instead to liberate Palestine.. or even Russia... from the Golden Horde?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
      [B]The crusades opened up Europe to the wider world. Would they have gone instead to liberate Palestine.. or even Russia... from the Golden Horde?
      That or many other wars. A reading into Papal politcs, and European politics of the era suggest the Crusades grew out of many factors of which Muslim control of Palestine was just the most publicized. The Byzantine state fought many wars aginst the various west Mediterranian and European states. That condition probablly would have continued as long as the Byzantine state survived. If the Arabs had not been propelled onto the Greater Middle East by Islam then perhaps by something else. I suspect that population demographics or some other social dynamic, were a underlying cause of the Arab eruption. Or some dynamic leader of Egypt, Mesopotamia, Tunis or whereever might take advantage of circumstance and create a empire the Pope and European Kings would direct a Crusade against.

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      • #4
        I have trouble imgaining the world being anything but a better place without 1.5 billion zombies reading the Shitty Little Book.

        That said without Islam to convict Christians of their worst hypocricies, perhaps Christianity would have BECOME Islam defacto.
        How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
        275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

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        • #5
          As far as greed, power lust, hypocrisy go Christianity had already been hijacked by unscruplous and corrupt leaders. The emperor Constantine had made Christianity the state religion to help him win a battle. The purges of heritics and apostates had little to do with the teachings of Jesus.

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          • #6
            well assuming Muhammed existed...

            ... and if he had lost (militarily? i.e crushed by the sassanids? crushed by a revitalized byzantines?).

            ... well, Arab culture would remain in the backyard ass-of-the world, that the Arabian peninsula is... until the discovery of oil of course...

            ... most of the mediterranean will remain christian and probably catholic until now. North africa and southern europe would be ethnically very "european"-looking... but it's hard to say which invasions would come.

            .. asia would be different. perhaps Persia and India would have significant parts of their people christian as well. no crusades of course....

            ... too many things to calculate. but yeah, remove ANY religion, especially the dumbest ones (i.e. the bloodthirsty ones, the archaic ones, the monotheistic ones, etc.), and you do get a better world.
            "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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            • #7
              One thing, back in 600 AD the richest part of the world was the Middle East. Now aside form oil it is one of the poorest. Would that situation be reveresed without Mohammed?

              Did Islam prevent the west being reconquered by the Romans?
              "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                One thing, back in 600 AD the richest part of the world was the Middle East. Now aside form oil it is one of the poorest. Would that situation be reveresed without Mohammed?
                The Middle East remained one of the richest parts of the world until the decline of the Ottoman empire. Some people blame the emergence of Imperial European states, others blame changing trade routes and global economics, changing weather patterns reducing the agricultural output of the ME is cited by others. Perhaps it was a combination of these and other factors.

                After the establishment of Islam as the primary religion of the ME prosperity there continued for another 700 - 800 years. Europe conversely spent another 300+ years in the Dark Ages and only slowly returned to or exceeded the economic and intelectual levels of the Roman period through the Middle Ages.

                So, I dont see Islam or at least the version dominant during the Caliphate as being the problem.

                Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                Did Islam prevent the west being reconquered by the Romans?
                By 600 AD the 'Roman' nation and culture were gone. The old Western empire had been to much altered by the Germanic warrior kings who took over. Greek Byzantium was a different matter. Absent a united Arab/Islamic empire the Greeks could have had another series of vigorus leaders continue Greek influence for many more centuries. After all Byzantium did survive as a imperial state for several more centuries before shrinking into a small remnant.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post



                  By 600 AD the 'Roman' nation and culture were gone. The old Western empire had been to much altered by the Germanic warrior kings who took over. Greek Byzantium was a different matter. Absent a united Arab/Islamic empire the Greeks could have had another series of vigorus leaders continue Greek influence for many more centuries. After all Byzantium did survive as a imperial state for several more centuries before shrinking into a small remnant.
                  In 600ad the offical language was still Latin and the empire still ruled a large part of the west (including intermitantly Rome itself). They called themselves 'Roman' right up until 1453. The term Byzantium empire wasn't invented until the 16th century. Without a threat in the east ithe empire may have continuted to recapture the west and wouldn't have become so Greek.
                  "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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