Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

German Airborne

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
    Greg,

    Actually you will have to be a little more precise! The Luftwaffe had Field, Panzer, FLAK, Security, and Paratroop units! The German Army also had a couple of Airlanding units as well.

    Several "Paratroop Divisions" in the last days were mostly maintenance crews, pilots and odds and sods drug up from anywhere. I think there was even two such units with the same number (7th?)!

    Pruitt
    Oh crap. That sounds confusing as all get out. I guess what I'm wondering how many guys they had who actually dropped in on you when you least expected it. (All of a sudden I feel ..... inadequate. I can't even phrase a question )

    Comment


    • #32
      Greg,

      The Fallschirmjaeger expanded so many times that only a few of them ever received Jump Training. Crete was the largest German Drop and that was only a reinforced division or so. That does not count the Mountain Division flown in on the airfields. The main problem was always lack of JU-52 transports and gliders. You can tow the gliders behind old bombers.

      Off the top of my head I am going to say that the Germans never really got beyond two divisions of Jump qualified Paratroops and of these rarely was one division available (not in the line somewhere) for use. They did drop/transport about a division (in pieces) in Tunisia and some more were dropped in Sicily. German operations also included Rhodes and The Bulge. Both of these were relatively small showing how hard it was to find a large number of Jump trained troops at one time.

      I would suggest you look into the operations of the 1st and 2nd Fallschirmjaeger Diovisions and FJ Regiment 6. I can't say offhand which unit was used in the Rhodes Operations.

      Pruitt
      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
        Greg,

        The Fallschirmjaeger expanded so many times that only a few of them ever received Jump Training. Crete was the largest German Drop and that was only a reinforced division or so. That does not count the Mountain Division flown in on the airfields. The main problem was always lack of JU-52 transports and gliders. You can tow the gliders behind old bombers.

        Off the top of my head I am going to say that the Germans never really got beyond two divisions of Jump qualified Paratroops and of these rarely was one division available (not in the line somewhere) for use. They did drop/transport about a division (in pieces) in Tunisia and some more were dropped in Sicily. German operations also included Rhodes and The Bulge. Both of these were relatively small showing how hard it was to find a large number of Jump trained troops at one time.

        I would suggest you look into the operations of the 1st and 2nd Fallschirmjaeger Diovisions and FJ Regiment 6. I can't say offhand which unit was used in the Rhodes Operations.

        Pruitt
        Thanks Pruitt I found another link somewhere here on these boards about the German paratroops. I'll have to go back and read it some more.

        Comment


        • #34
          Off the top of my head:

          The 'Paras' sent to Tunisia did not parachute in. They were flown into the Bizerte/Tunis airfields.

          Two regimental combat groups jumped into Sicilly on two different days. One landed at the Pimsole (Sp?) bridge a few hours before the British jumped onto the same site. The other jumped onto a airfield already held by the Italians. A third regiment may have been flown in to the same airfield.

          The Aegean operation was aimed at some other island than Rhoades, Kos perhaps.

          The final para op in December 1944 had a maximum of 1,500 men assigned. Perhaps 1,200 jumped over Allied territory. The navigation of the transports was so poor that the unit commander was able to assemble just 300 men, several kilometers from the drop zone. At least one plane load was dropped so far to the south that my father, a ordinance officer of a medium bomber group, spent a day leading his mechanics about the muddy French countryside trying to rescue them from the French farmers.

          Comment


          • #35
            Carl,

            The FJ 6 Regiment had a problem getting to the airfield to take off. About half the unit was stranded without fuel. I am thinking maybe 600 or so took off. The Col von der Heydte (?) jumped with a broken arm!

            I googled German Paratrooper Rhodes and found that the Paratroops may have actually been from the 15 Paratrooper Company of the Brandenburger Organization. German Armor landed on Rhodes and the paratroops seized the airfield on Kos so that the Kampfgruppe from 22nd Infantry Division could come in. Not long after, Leros fell.

            Pruitt
            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
              Carl,

              The FJ 6 Regiment had a problem getting to the airfield to take off. About half the unit was stranded without fuel. I am thinking maybe 600 or so took off. The Col von der Heydte (?) jumped with a broken arm!
              However many it was, they had the stratigically important effect of causing 500,000 US Army rear service soldiers to draw their weapons from the armory. And, then clean them after carrying them about the countryside for a day. Many also missed their hot lunch whilst scouring the woods.

              Comment


              • #37
                From some of what I've found on the web it looks like a lot of the paras went in riding gliders? I'm also seeing that they fought like hell.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Greg,

                  Technically Airborne troops that ride Gliders in are called "Glider Borne". People who jump out of perfectly good airplanes to descend to the ground by silk are called Paratroops. It may seem silly from this time and place, but in the Americans Army Glider troops did not get Jump Pay like the Paratroops did.

                  You can stretch a point and call all members of an Airborne Division "Paratroops" but once you get down to smaller units, it pays to differentiate.

                  Glider troops went into action with heavier weapons for instance. Glider troops get to sit down and ride in holding their weapons and then help secure things like Jeeps, motorcycles and cannon that also glide in. Paratroops have trouble holding on to personal weapons while coming down. The jump into the slipstream can and does rip whatever you are holding or have loosely attached to its own landing somewhere else. That is why some Paratroops were going into action armed with pistols until they could reach the weapons containers with the rifles, submachineguns and machineguns. As the war went on there were better ways to attach weapons figured out and it became easier on Jumpers.

                  I don't see any accounts of Paratroops or Glider Troops riding in and just giving up without a fight. There is something about being alone (or mostly alone) in the middle of large numbers of enemy troops that inspires one to go out and win the war. Casualties are often high as well. Enemy troops don't like to take Airborne troops captive. They tend to shoot them in the air as well!

                  Pruitt
                  Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                  Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                  by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                    Greg,

                    Technically Airborne troops that ride Gliders in are called "Glider Borne". People who jump out of perfectly good airplanes to descend to the ground by silk are called Paratroops. It may seem silly from this time and place, but in the Americans Army Glider troops did not get Jump Pay like the Paratroops did.

                    You can stretch a point and call all members of an Airborne Division "Paratroops" but once you get down to smaller units, it pays to differentiate.

                    Glider troops went into action with heavier weapons for instance. Glider troops get to sit down and ride in holding their weapons and then help secure things like Jeeps, motorcycles and cannon that also glide in. Paratroops have trouble holding on to personal weapons while coming down. The jump into the slipstream can and does rip whatever you are holding or have loosely attached to its own landing somewhere else. That is why some Paratroops were going into action armed with pistols until they could reach the weapons containers with the rifles, submachineguns and machineguns. As the war went on there were better ways to attach weapons figured out and it became easier on Jumpers.

                    I don't see any accounts of Paratroops or Glider Troops riding in and just giving up without a fight. There is something about being alone (or mostly alone) in the middle of large numbers of enemy troops that inspires one to go out and win the war. Casualties are often high as well. Enemy troops don't like to take Airborne troops captive. They tend to shoot them in the air as well!

                    Pruitt
                    Maybe thats why there are not large numbers of paratroops. You can't find a lot of people willing to jump out of a good plane right into a stream of bullets. Along with knowing you will be on your own for a few days with nothing except what you carried in yourself to fight with. I just read a 10 commandments for the German paras one being that they would not waste ammo. Easy to see why that was stressed. I read an account on Crete where it mentioned that the defenders shot many of the Germans as they were coming down. I imagine that happened to many allied troops too.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                      Greg,

                      Technically Airborne troops that ride Gliders in are called "Glider Borne". People who jump out of perfectly good airplanes to descend to the ground by silk are called Paratroops. It may seem silly from this time and place, but in the Americans Army Glider troops did not get Jump Pay like the Paratroops did.

                      Pruitt
                      Glider pay was authorized by August 1944. Airborne was a title that encompassed both the PIR/PFA and the GIR/GFA.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        If the Germans had had the paras and enough transport would a drop on the east side of the Volga at Stalingrad have been able to make much of a difference in the battle? The Germans were never able to stop to flow of fresh troops and as a result couldn't win. If a para force had been dropped would they have been able to slow the new Soviet reenforcements enough for Paulus to push all the way to the river? And then link up with the paras.
                        I see problems with this, dropping too soon in the battle and not getting relief in time. Dropping too far away and not being able to reach their target. (Which would be what?) Dropping right into a grinder and losing most of their men in the drop. What if Kruschev (spelling?) was to get shot by a para?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          I think the German Army would have had to make a change in its strategy of taking Stalingrad, and instead surround it first, then try to take it after cutting it off. Cutting of Leningrad by airborne, who would be relieved by panzers could possibly work. Then try to starve Stalingrad into submission. The question then becomes did Germany have the offensive power at that time to actually surround Stalingrad and then try to take it all the while being attacked by Russian forces?

                          Since the Russians were building up large forces on the flanks of Stalingrad I would figure those forces would be used to attack the air bridgehead and relieve Stalingrad. Plus, if the paras and panzers did meet up it may have just made a better target for the Uranus Operation by the Russians.

                          Dan Stueber

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            The Germans did use air reinforcement at Stalingrad for a while. The problem was a lack of transport and air cover. I don't think there was any Airborne troops available for air-landing at this time. They were using all such Light Infantry formations in other parts of the front.

                            Panzers were not a good force around the Leningrad area. Too much marshy terrain and a lack of good roads. All Panzer units used to get there in the Invasion were pulled out because they were not doing well.

                            Pruitt
                            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              The Germans did use air reinforcement at Stalingrad for a while. The problem was a lack of transport and air cover. I don't think there was any Airborne troops available for air-landing at this time. They were using all such Light Infantry formations in other parts of the front.
                              Yes, but going back to the "what if". Suppose the airborne were still a viable force. Would using them in force have been able to make a difference? If the Soviets were unable to keep pouring in new troops from the east bank of the Volga would it have been possible to capture the city?

                              Was that the only source of re-enforcements or were they coming in from another direction? I've only read they came over the river.

                              If they were able to hit it like they did Crete. Were there enough airfields nearby? Hmm, Crete had the problem of dusty takeoff fields(not the island but where they launched from I mean) that delayed some flights I think. Would any fields in Russia have been the same or would they have been able to get people in closer together? Without waiting for dust to settle for the next flight to take off.

                              Sooo, would there have been a chance of winning or if the airborne had suffered massive losses would the Germans have stopped the attack?

                              (sorry I'm full of questions)

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Aside from many thousands reinforcements on the east side of the river there was a considerable mass of artillery, including antiaircraft artillery. Plus the pioneer regiments operating the ferrys and many of ther rear service battalions. On some days as many as fiftythousand men were on the east side of the river, mostly armed. Five thousand or even tenthousand paras would have a tough time with all that. Plus there were the tank corps assemblying both to the north and south for the big November attack. Either tank group could have spared a brigade or two for counter attacking the paras.

                                Comment

                                Latest Topics

                                Collapse

                                Working...
                                X