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  • #16
    Originally posted by Psyhcoward View Post
    Was there ever any talk of dropping on England? If they had done so during the middle of the battle of Britain before Crete. Would that have put a scare into the Brits or would it have been target practice in the English countryside?
    I'm assuming that at that time British troops were still longing for weapons left in France and the airforce was getting battered. With the Germans still high on morale from one win after another. I don't know what the British had for troops strength then so I'm assuming a lot.
    The Germans would have lost every paratrooper for zero gain. Getting the troops to their destination is the easy part. Supply and reinforcement is the hard part.

    Here are some threads that you can read through for the requirements of the scenario you are talking about:

    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=64146
    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=59285
    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=34512
    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=54475

    And where is that thread on Sealion...
    Ah, here it is.
    http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ration+sealion

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Naffenea View Post
      The Germans would have lost every paratrooper for zero gain. Getting the troops to their destination is the easy part. Supply and reinforcement is the hard part.

      Here are some threads that you can read through for the requirements of the scenario you are talking about:

      http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=64146
      http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=59285
      http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=34512
      http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=54475

      And where is that thread on Sealion...
      Ah, here it is.
      http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ration+sealion

      Thanks some good reading.
      But now I'm thinking that had the Germans had the airborne troops to use, and were able to get some reasonable forces across the channel to support them England would have been knocked out or forced to give up. All the Germans needed was someone with a set of giant ones to say screw that facts and attack. Let the airborne raise merry hell in the country,run bombers on the Brits airfields and throw troops across the channel as fast as possible. Use your fighters to cover the landings. You get the Brits looking several directions,and maybe reacting piecemeal. Yes, you take terrible casualties. But once enough Germans are there (not neccesarily tens of thousands, someone paniced and running will inflate the numbers) and enough British troops are killed, will England last any longer than France did?
      Yeah, I would have tried it. If it fails the English are still on an island and unable to do anything about it. And I've lost no ground, sadly a lot of men and material. But if it works, I get England and maybe a lot of Irish recruits?
      A bullet or a medal.

      Comment


      • #18
        The Germans didn't lack for a pair of big brass cojones. What they had is what you lack, a brain.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Naffenea View Post
          The Germans didn't lack for a pair of big brass cojones. What they had is what you lack, a brain.
          Aww, I engaged in a bit of fantasy. I know the Germans had guts. I just wonder what would have happened if one of the Generals had said, take a chance.
          To go back to the beginning of this thread and my original thought though. Even if the Germans had not lost so many paratroops in Crete they prolbably wouldn't have played any war changing part. The other posts here and the links provided (by you ) have been an education.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Psyhcoward View Post
            Aww, I engaged in a bit of fantasy. I know the Germans had guts. I just wonder what would have happened if one of the Generals had said, take a chance.
            To go back to the beginning of this thread and my original thought though. Even if the Germans had not lost so many paratroops in Crete they prolbably wouldn't have played any war changing part. The other posts here and the links provided (by you ) have been an education.
            You read all those already??? What a life of leasure you are leading in new Phildelphia. Or is someone paying you to read these discussion boards? Where does a fella get work like that?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
              The Garrison at Malta varied over time. The British had regular troops and local Militia. There was also a Machinegun Battalion at Malta. I will give you what the Order of Battle was in 1942 in the Invasion of Malta Game in my Air Assault Crete Game.

              Southern Area Command- Brigade Hq, 2nd Devonshire, 1st Dorsetshire, 1st Hampshire, 3rd Kings Own Maltese Rifles
              Northern Area Command- Bde HQ, 6th Manchester, 2nd Royal Irish Fusiliers, 1st KOMR, 2nd KOMR
              Central Area Command- Bde HQ, 2nd Royal Warwickshire (RWK?), 1st Lancashire (LANC?), 10th KOMR, 1st Cheshire (MG)
              Western Area- Bde HQ, 4th Buff Howards, 1st DLI, 8th Kings Own

              Miscellaneous- 16th, 24th Fortress Comp RE, Batteries A,B,C 26th Royal Artillery (Beach Defense), A,B,C Troops 7th Royal Tanks, A Troop 3rd Hussars (LT), 8 separate Batteries of Heavy AAA, 5 separate Batteries Light AAA, 3 Battalions/12 Royal Artillery, 14 separate Batteries Coastal Defense Artillery.

              I left out one company of MPs.

              Later on, three Battalions were grouped together to form the 231st Infantry Brigade which was attached to 50th Infantry Division.

              After the Invasion of Italy the Malta Garrison was reduced over time and the better troops replaced by Garrison Battalions. Nobody mentioned the Royal Navy and RAF on Malta.

              Pruitt

              Thanks Pruitt, sounds like a lot, souds like a Division and a half, plus a Battalion of armor, with lavish artillery support. The flak looks a little weak, enough close air support might turn the trick.
              Looks like the Axis would need at least 4 Div's to crack that nut, how many did they have for Malta?
              "Why is the Rum gone?"

              -Captain Jack

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                You read all those already??? What a life of leasure you are leading in new Phildelphia. Or is someone paying you to read these discussion boards? Where does a fella get work like that?
                LOL no, I'm still reading. But since I own the place I can read at work
                Downside is, I'm here more than home
                Upside, Now that I have internet at work I have something like this board to read and learn from


                I've read the first three links Naff left and most of the 4th. (Quiet morning so nothing to do for the past 5 hours) I backed away from the link on Sealion. That one just scared me. I noticed what looked like a lot of bickering on a couple of the threads is it that common?
                Last edited by Psyhcoward; 20 Oct 08, 11:19. Reason: Did more reading

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                  The flak looks a little weak, enough close air support might turn the trick.
                  By April '42 there were 112 Heavy and 144 Light anti-aircraft guns on Malta.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Exorcist,

                    I will post a hypothetical Axis Order of battle later as I am about to take a nap (04:46 in the am!).

                    Thing to remember is the original Garrison at Malta was probably only a brigade. This was beefed up over time. One could always add in the Naval AAA fire from ships in the harbor! Much of the Coastal Artillery could well have been only 6 Pounders (not sure if Naval or Army types). The best anti-Paratroop weapon would have been the artillery and the tanks! I am also recalling from the depths of my mind that not all the Kings Own Maltese Rifles were well trained and there were a number of Italian loving Maltese on the island.

                    I will say that the proposed Axis Invasion of Malta depended rather too much on ship borne Italian divisions. Most of the troops involved were Italian. Italy had two divisions of Paratroops and one Air Landing division at this time. The Royal Navy would have put a large dent in any Invasion Fleet.

                    Pruitt
                    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      A Quick and Dirty O of B for the Axis is : One Fallschirmjaeger Div (probably 1st but the Ramcke Brigade was part of the 2nd and it went to North Africa instead of participating), Folgore Airborne Div, Spezia Airlanding Div, Friuli Div, Livorno Div, Assetti Div, Napoli Div, Four Italian Corps Artillery Battalions, San Marco Swimmer Companies and Air Landing units (three or four battalions worth).

                      Main problem was assault craft. Final plan had to use small fishing boats! Most of the Naval and Air assets were Italian, though the 10th Flieger Corps was probable.

                      Pruitt
                      Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                      Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                      by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        try googling for "operazione C3". it would have been an italian operation (and thus unlikely to succeed... )
                        "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Psyhcoward View Post
                          I've read the first three links Naff left and most of the 4th. (Quiet morning so nothing to do for the past 5 hours) I backed away from the link on Sealion. That one just scared me. I noticed what looked like a lot of bickering on a couple of the threads is it that common?
                          Yes, the bickering can be common. What you will notice hopefully is that even though this is a "what-if" section, we still demand realistic methods, equipment, timing, etc. Different people have their pet peeves that will set them off. Mine are the improper use of Airborne forces and complete lack of respect for logistics.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Naffenea View Post
                            The Germans would have lost every paratrooper for zero gain. Getting the troops to their destination is the easy part. Supply and reinforcement is the hard part.

                            Here are some threads that you can read through for the requirements of the scenario you are talking about:

                            http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=64146
                            http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=59285
                            http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=34512
                            http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=54475

                            And where is that thread on Sealion...
                            Ah, here it is.
                            http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ration+sealion
                            Yes very early in the war they MAY have had SOME success but as you say getting them there would probably have been the easy part! Supply would have been the critical factor and any attempt later in the war by sea or air would have been doomed to failure because from the Battle of Britain onwards the whole outlook on the war both by the armed forces and civilians had altered and would have stayed that way, come what may!!
                            'By Horse by Tram'.


                            I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                            " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Naffenea View Post
                              Yes, the bickering can be common. What you will notice hopefully is that even though this is a "what-if" section, we still demand realistic methods, equipment, timing, etc. Different people have their pet peeves that will set them off. Mine are the improper use of Airborne forces and complete lack of respect for logistics.
                              Naff, Once I read through the links you provided I realized I should have been a whole lot more carefull with my wording. Believe you me, looking like some dumbass grade schooler is not what I wanted. I'm way to old for that
                              Question. How many paratroops did Germany have? I've read some articles in the past but don't ever remember any total numbers.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Greg,

                                Actually you will have to be a little more precise! The Luftwaffe had Field, Panzer, FLAK, Security, and Paratroop units! The German Army also had a couple of Airlanding units as well.

                                Several "Paratroop Divisions" in the last days were mostly maintenance crews, pilots and odds and sods drug up from anywhere. I think there was even two such units with the same number (7th?)!

                                Pruitt
                                Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                                Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                                by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                                Comment

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