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What if Germany had won at Stalingrad and Kursk?

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  • What if Germany had won at Stalingrad and Kursk?

    Didn't see this post, may be interesting to discuss. This was a great turning point in World War 2. What if Germany had won these battles, how would the war have been different.
    If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

  • #2
    In my opinion if they win at Stalingrad, Stalin's paranoia goes way past high drive. He'll get very paranoid that he's lost the city named after him. I think the Nazi's wanted to give a psychological blow to his ego by taking Stalingrad, as I don't really see any strategic importance for them taking the city and all the effort and men involved in taking Stalingrad. I think they also will probably take the oil in the Caucasus Mountains, which will alleviate their fuel problems later in the war. With this oil, and the fact they didn't lose so many men by losing, I think they will have more soldiers and supplies to fight the Allies in the West. This will make the Allies efforts in the West much more difficult and will prolong the war much longer.
    If they win at Kursk they can continue to fight Eastward on the Eastern Front which will prolong the war on the Eastern Front. This will make it more difficult for the Soviets to conquer Berlin, because after their defeat at Kursk the Germans were in retreat mode back to Berlin. At the time of their defeat at Kursk they couldn't afford to lose as many tanks and men as they did in that battle. The Soviets could replace their lost tanks and men much more easily than the Nazis could at that point of WW2 on the Eastern Front.

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    • #3
      The soviets had many last lines of defence to fall back on, losses taking stalingrad street for street, could have been quite horrific for the germans.
      Germany only had so many men of fighting fitness, loss of men and pilots would always be there downfall.
      Sealion would have failed..............runs,

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      • #4
        Whatever land the German's manage to take would be lost the next winter. The German's never figured out how to win a winter campaign. Germany would never have the manpower to hold what she had taken either.
        If you can't set a good example, be a glaring warning.

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        • #5
          Actualy, the Germans won several winter campaigns. Primary among them was manstien's riposte right after Stalingrad, leading up to the 4th battle of Karkhov.

          However, the question is flawed. With a win at Stalingrad (how?) there would not have been a Kursk. The Southern German front would not have collapsed, and the Kursk salient would not have appeared.

          Okay, if von Paulus had pulled his Panzer Divs back to Kalach at the beggining of November and allowed them to re-fit, in just the place where they could have ambushed the Soviets, he might have been able to hang on. WHat next?

          Come spring, a Russian spoiling attack, Perhaps agasint Stalinggrad itself, just as the German forces in the extreem south launch thier offensive at Baku?
          Fine, time for Hitler to dither again, and for Stalin to shoot more of his own Generals... and round and round it goes in the same old, bloody old way.

          Unless the fear of a general Soviet collapse diverted Allied troops to the caucasus, instead of Sicilly, I dont see how 1943 would have been all that different.
          "Why is the Rum gone?"

          -Captain Jack

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          • #6
            Either way Germany loses more men and equipment than it can afford. Even before the Soviet counter attack and encirclement of the 6th Army in November Army Group South was much depleted. The oil fields and refinerys on the Caspian Sea coast are often mentioned. It is nearly certain the USSR would have defended those just as stubornly as Stalingrad, Sevastopol and the other cities in 1942. A look at the overall attrition and replacement rates of both sides for 1942/43 shows the German army and airforce as clearly on the losing side.

            To gain any sort of decisive result in 1942 or early 1943, Germany must reduce Soviet industrial capacity drastically. That at least requires quickly eliminating the Caspian oil source, taking the industrial cities of the Don basin including Stalingrad, blocking off the Allied supply route from Persia through the Caucasian Mountains. This must all be done with speed, and without severe casualties.

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            • #7
              One more important thing to remember is that Hitler ordered a no retreat policy, which if they had been allowed to, could have made significant counter attacks with proper reorganization from the ability to fall back and regroup.
              If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

              There never was a good war or a bad peace.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Lonewulf View Post
                One more important thing to remember is that Hitler ordered a no retreat policy, which if they had been allowed to, could have made significant counter attacks with proper reorganization from the ability to fall back and regroup.

                Sterling point and his generals were certainly naffed off about it.
                Sealion would have failed..............runs,

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                • #9
                  I think with a victory at Kursk more notably; the battle at Prokhorovka, is this; with no Russian main Armored Group in the vicinity, and the Russian defenses and armies smashed and defeated, the Germans could have broken through the lines and gone on the offensive again. The situation in the area could have become precarious to say the least.

                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by Lonewulf; 15 Oct 08, 11:57. Reason: Pic
                  If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

                  There never was a good war or a bad peace.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by UGLYGUTS View Post
                    Germany only had so many men of fighting fitness, loss of men and pilots would always be there downfall.

                    German pilots weren't men ! ?
                    How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic: http://grist.org/series/skeptics/
                    Global Warming & Climate Change Myths: https://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php

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