Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

What if America did not enter WW2?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
    I think that's been shown to be a myth. After the disasters of 1941 Soviet casualties were not excessive given that the Red Army spent most of the rest of the war on the offensive. German casualties were also heavy yet I don't see the same criticism levied at them even though they were not averse to throwing children and old men into combat.
    That is not a myth, I have friends whom are Russian and had relatives whom fought in the Soviet Army and they said it absolutely happened and it is not a myth.
    If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

    Comment


    • #62
      If Japan had not attacked the U.S. they would have had a number of troops to send other places right? Would they not have moved harder on Australia? Without the losses they suffered from fighting the U.S. Navy could they have over run southeast asia? I thought they had all but eliminated allied naval forces by 42 in the south pacific and Indian oceans.
      And I thought that one of the main reasons the Soviets were able to hammer the Germans was the fresh siberian divisions that were released when Stalin knew he wouldn't have to worry about the Japanese since they were hard at it with the U.S. Navy? If America was not in the fight would Stalin still have moved the siberians or would he have kept them as a check against the Japanese? I know the the Russians had already whupped the Japanese shortly before then but wouldn't Stalin have still been worried?
      Then, if he had kept the siberians where they were would the Germans have suffered as badly against the reconstituted armies Stalin would have still used?
      A few other questoins come to mind but I don't want to overload on my first post.

      Comment


      • #63
        Good call Psyhcoward, these are all interesting points and well worth consideration, I do not think Stalin would have released the Soviet Far East Crack Divisions, as Japan could still be a threat with no fight with the Americans. Also the Allies didn't really have much of a naval fleet after the Japanese got rolling. Japan would have had to ignore the Philippines if they were to pursue a war with the Allies, they may or may not have invaded Australia, to me it seems kind of pointless to invade Australia other then an emotional blow to the Allies. So as for P.T.O Japan probably would have won that war, not necessarily in China though.
        If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

        There never was a good war or a bad peace.

        Comment


        • #64
          So, if the siberian divisons stayed put and Stalin had to rely on his armies in place against the germans would the germans have been able to hold out instead of being driven back? And since America wasn't there how would Africa have turned out? Would the Brits have launched an operation Torch or would Rommel have mopped up and moved his Afrika Corp into Russia along with fresh german toops from europe that would not be needed to standby to repell Americans from Africa and then Italy?
          I'm thinking that the germans might have pulled a win out of the hat. Because a lot of American ships would not have running escort past the german uboats. I'm thinking that the german generals might have tried to kill Hitler again had the war drug on longer, if only to stop his messing up and getting troops killed by supid orders.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Psyhcoward View Post
            So, if the siberian divisons stayed put and Stalin had to rely on his armies in place against the germans would the germans have been able to hold out instead of being driven back? And since America wasn't there how would Africa have turned out? Would the Brits have launched an operation Torch or would Rommel have mopped up and moved his Afrika Corp into Russia along with fresh german toops from europe that would not be needed to standby to repell Americans from Africa and then Italy?
            I'm thinking that the germans might have pulled a win out of the hat. Because a lot of American ships would not have running escort past the german uboats. I'm thinking that the german generals might have tried to kill Hitler again had the war drug on longer, if only to stop his messing up and getting troops killed by supid orders.
            Then the SS would kill them and then they would run germany. They would run the country twise as bad as hitler did, and they, instead of surrendering, would fight to the death and really mess germany up.

            Sgt. Ace_General

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Ace_General View Post
              Then the SS would kill them and then they would run germany. They would run the country twise as bad as hitler did, and they, instead of surrendering, would fight to the death and really mess germany up.

              Sgt. Ace_General
              Isn't that what happened anyway?
              If the art of war were nothing but the art of avoiding risks,glory would become the prey of mediocre minds. Napoleon

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Psyhcoward View Post
                And I thought that one of the main reasons the Soviets were able to hammer the Germans was the fresh siberian divisions that were released when Stalin knew he wouldn't have to worry about the Japanese since they were hard at it with the U.S. Navy?
                The decision to draw reinforcements from Siberia had been on STAVKAs agenda all the way back to the previous summer. The general decsion about this was made well before Japan declared war on the US, sometime in October I understand. Having beaten the Japanese in several battles during the 1930s the Soviet leaders did not seem to consider removing part of their army from the East a significant risk.

                Also the overall manpower or number of weapons was not greatly decreased. The regiments and divsion HQ of the Siberian units were split. Between 30% and 70% of the men of each regiment were sent west while the remainder stayed. The vacancys were refilled with the young men called up fopr conscription in the autum and winter of 1941 from the Siberian cities and villiages. The bulk of the weapons of the Siberian army remained in the east. On arriving in the assembly areas in the west the Siberian reinforcement regiments and HQ were brought up to strength with the last of the mobilizied reservists, and the teenagers that had just reach conscription age, who had been called up but not thrown into the battle in ill trained formations. These new regiments formed on the Siberians were largely equipped with the weapons that were coming from the factorys in late 1941 and odd lots remaining in the army camps not yet overrun. If you go over to the RKKA forum and ask there are some experts who can direct you to a much more complete or detailed account of how the armys that counter attacked at Moscow were formed.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                  The decision to draw reinforcements from Siberia had been on STAVKAs agenda all the way back to the previous summer. The general decsion about this was made well before Japan declared war on the US, sometime in October I understand. Having beaten the Japanese in several battles during the 1930s the Soviet leaders did not seem to consider removing part of their army from the East a significant risk.

                  Also the overall manpower or number of weapons was not greatly decreased. The regiments and divsion HQ of the Siberian units were split. Between 30% and 70% of the men of each regiment were sent west while the remainder stayed. The vacancys were refilled with the young men called up fopr conscription in the autum and winter of 1941 from the Siberian cities and villiages. The bulk of the weapons of the Siberian army remained in the east. On arriving in the assembly areas in the west the Siberian reinforcement regiments and HQ were brought up to strength with the last of the mobilizied reservists, and the teenagers that had just reach conscription age, who had been called up but not thrown into the battle in ill trained formations. These new regiments formed on the Siberians were largely equipped with the weapons that were coming from the factorys in late 1941 and odd lots remaining in the army camps not yet overrun. If you go over to the RKKA forum and ask there are some experts who can direct you to a much more complete or detailed account of how the armys that counter attacked at Moscow were formed.
                  I never knew that. Everything always seemed to make you think they brought up full strength and ready to go to take on the germans. I didn't know the russians had discounted the Japanese that much either. Must have honked off the Japanese later to see they were thought so lowly of by the Russians.
                  I've got to read more here. Learn new things every day when I began to think there was nothing new to learn

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Legate View Post
                    Isn't that what happened anyway?
                    Yer took the words right out of me marf!!
                    'By Horse by Tram'.


                    I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
                    " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Ace_General View Post
                      Then the SS would kill them and then they would run germany. They would run the country twise as bad as hitler did, and they, instead of surrendering, would fight to the death and really mess germany up.

                      Sgt. Ace_General
                      Anyone and I mean anyone would have been better then Hitler in power, think of all of the people whom were denied existence because of that maniac.
                      If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

                      There never was a good war or a bad peace.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        John Wayne 'bless him' would have been on the dole, Errol Flynn Would have been hunting Dingos instead of winning Burma single handed for ole Uncle Sam, and Glen Miller wouldn't have been James Stewart.
                        ‘Tis said his form is tiny, yet
                        All human ills he can subdue,
                        Or with a bauble or medal
                        Can win mans heart for you;
                        And many a blessing know to stew
                        To make a megloamaniac bright;
                        Give honour to the dainty Corse,
                        The Pixie is a little shite.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          On this topic how much did the B 17 raids against Germany degrade there production capacity. I thought it was a fairly big thorn in Germanys side. Granted it may not of been alot but I am guessing Germany ends up with a lot more supplies for it troops ie gas.

                          I also think the Germans would of been able to produce more tanks and airplanes.

                          Another thought is the Germans probally do not spend the resources building the all the Ocean defense and have a few more units to send West.


                          I do agree though Britain would survive no matter what because Germany would never be albe to mount a successful invasion England. Before D day how much practice did the United States have. Germany would of had to learn all of this in there first major invasion.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Psyhcoward View Post
                            I never knew that. Everything always seemed to make you think they brought up full strength and ready to go to take on the germans. I didn't know the russians had discounted the Japanese that much either. Must have honked off the Japanese later to see they were thought so lowly of by the Russians.
                            I've got to read more here. Learn new things every day when I began to think there was nothing new to learn
                            The RKKA did not leave th new conscripts in the East untrained. They btought the armys there back of to standard as quickly as they could. And, there may have other similar draws on the trained soldiers in Siberia as new conscrips became available in late 1942 ans 1943. Japan did remove a lot of first rate regiments from Manchuria to fight in the Pacific or Asia, but I dont know if they understood the real strengths and weaknesses of the Soviet far Eastern ground and airforces. In 1944 they begain a program to build up the armys in Manchuria. By mid 1945 they had approx 1.2 million men under arms there. But about 40% were Manchurian militia and labor battalions of Koreans and other non Japanese. Roughly 750,000 were in properly trained field combat units.

                            Drawing trained men off the Far Eastern Armys in late 1941 had a degree of risk, but as they had beaten the Japanese army and ahd some good spies it looked like a reasonable gamble.
                            Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 19 Oct 08, 08:29.

                            Comment

                            Latest Topics

                            Collapse

                            Working...
                            X