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  • Lenin the lawyer?

    Here is a different one - from my notice anyway.

    Vladimir Ilich Ulyanov (Lenin's proper name), from a rustic town in Siberia, has moved to Moscow to practice law. Having lost both parents while still a child, and his brother in an attempt on the Tsar's life, young Vladimir has learned to be self-reliant. Expelled from college for joining a peaceful protest, he studied on his own and managed to pass the bar in 1891. While in Moscow, and in travelling elsewhere in European Russia, Vladimir becomes familiar socialist and communist organizations. Intrigued, he attends several meetings, meets leaders and reads published writings. He approves of a party that cares about the downtrodden and unfortunate. Though he has some misgivings, he remains interested, though not very active. After the 1905 Revolution, seeing the disorganization and ruthlessness of these organizations, especially the "Bolsheviks", and figuring that association with such people may jeopardize his practice of law, he breaks off all contact, essentially becoming apolitical. He becomes a lawyer of some renown, especially his legal assistance for those who cannot afford legal representation.

    OK, Lenin is out of the picture as far as revolution goes. What happens now?
    Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
    (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

  • #2
    No Lenin, no communist victory in 1917. The rest of the party loyalist were willing to share power with Kerinsky but were not willing to try to grab it all for themselves.
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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    • #3
      Actually, I thought that Lenin wasn't even there when the Bolsheviks overran the tsar's palace. He was at a friend's party across the city, wasn't he?
      "You realize that if I could actually purchase a weapon, I would stab you with it now?" --Roy, Order of the Stick #136

      Governor of South Florida, Cuba, Louisiana, Manhattan, Hawaii, Illinois, Moon and Mars. Chief of Cybernetics Div., S.INC

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      • #4
        Correct. I simply see someone else taking the reins from the Boleshies,perhaps a few more years of chaos following the revolution.
        Delegate, MN GOP.

        PATRIA SI, COMUNISMO NO

        http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/p...?id=1156276727

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Bariman
          Actually, I thought that Lenin wasn't even there when the Bolsheviks overran the tsar's palace. He was at a friend's party across the city, wasn't he?
          At his age (about 50) taking place in storming the palace would have been quite hazardous.

          I believe that he was at the Smolny Institute, a girls' prep school, and Bolshevik HQ at the time of the storming of the the Winter Palace. He was not a field leader, more an orator, rabble-rouser, figurehead, ideologue and icon.
          Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
          (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

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          • #6
            Re: Lenin the lawyer?

            Originally posted by hogdriver
            Here is a different one - from my notice anyway.

            Vladimir Ilich Ulyanov (Lenin's proper name), from a rustic town in Siberia, has moved to Moscow to practice law. Having lost both parents while still a child, and his brother in an attempt on the Tsar's life, young Vladimir has learned to be self-reliant. Expelled from college for joining a peaceful protest, he studied on his own and managed to pass the bar in 1891. While in Moscow, and in travelling elsewhere in European Russia, Vladimir becomes familiar socialist and communist organizations. Intrigued, he attends several meetings, meets leaders and reads published writings. He approves of a party that cares about the downtrodden and unfortunate. Though he has some misgivings, he remains interested, though not very active. After the 1905 Revolution, seeing the disorganization and ruthlessness of these organizations, especially the "Bolsheviks", and figuring that association with such people may jeopardize his practice of law, he breaks off all contact, essentially becoming apolitical. He becomes a lawyer of some renown, especially his legal assistance for those who cannot afford legal representation.

            OK, Lenin is out of the picture as far as revolution goes. What happens now?
            I was 18 when USSR collapsed and I know some data about Lenin.

            1. Lenin was born in Simbirsk (now - Ulyanovsk), town in the Volga.

            It is not Siberia.

            He didn't lose parents when he was child.

            2.
            After the 1905 Revolution, seeing the disorganization and ruthlessness of these organizations, especially the "Bolsheviks", and figuring that association with such people may jeopardize his practice of law, he breaks off all contact, essentially becoming apolitical. He becomes a lawyer of some renown, especially his legal assistance for those who cannot afford legal representation
            Your words are very strange. As I know Lenin didn't stop his political activity after end of 1905 Revolution. As I remember after 1905 Lenin lived in emigration in Switzerland and continuied to work as leader RSDRP(B) - (Russian Social-Democratic Worker Party (of Bolsheviks)).

            During WWI Germany tried to break rear of Russian Army and supported all anti-state forces in Russia. German General Staff(!!!) gave VERY many money to Lenin's party for anti-state actions in Russia, Germans let for Bolsheviks to make propaganda in German Camps of Russian POWs. After February Revolution of 1917 in Russia Germans sent Lenin and group of his followers in Russia through Finnish border in closed carriage. Lenin was one of first anti-state leaders who came in Russia from emigration after revolution of February of 1917.

            So say thank you for German General Staff for Communist Revolution in Russia.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by hogdriver
              At his age (about 50) taking place in storming the palace would have been quite hazardous.

              I believe that he was at the Smolny Institute, a girls' prep school, and Bolshevik HQ at the time of the storming of the the Winter Palace. He was not a field leader, more an orator, rabble-rouser, figurehead, ideologue and icon.
              Yes, Lenin was not field-leader like commander of platoon during revolution of 1917. He was like general and I suppose that it is OK when general doesn't fight personally with rifle in combat.

              But it is wrong to think that Lenin was only orator. He personally took part in many concrete anti-state "field" actions, he often used wrong names in false passports, Lenin was one of his most popular name in false passports.

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              • #8
                Re: Re: Lenin the lawyer?

                Originally posted by Andrey
                I was 18 when USSR collapsed and I know some data about Lenin.

                1. Lenin was born in Simbirsk (now - Ulyanovsk), town in the Volga.

                It is not Siberia.

                He didn't lose parents when he was child.
                According to the source I read, "Lenin lost both parents as a child, and his brother, who had taken part in a plot against Tsar Alexander III"


                2.

                Your words are very strange. As I know Lenin didn't stop his political activity after end of 1905 Revolution. As I remember after 1905 Lenin lived in emigration in Switzerland and continuied to work as leader RSDRP(B) - (Russian Social-Democratic Worker Party (of Bolsheviks)).

                Re-read my post. This is a hypothetical situation.

                During WWI Germany tried to break rear of Russian Army and supported all anti-state forces in Russia. German General Staff(!!!) gave VERY many money to Lenin's party for anti-state actions in Russia, Germans let for Bolsheviks to make propaganda in German Camps of Russian POWs. After February Revolution of 1917 in Russia Germans sent Lenin and group of his followers in Russia through Finnish border in closed carriage. Lenin was one of first anti-state leaders who came in Russia from emigration after revolution of February of 1917.

                So say thank you for German General Staff for Communist Revolution in Russia.
                From what I have read, it is not at all unlikely that Lenin could have followed another path - given his brother's fate, and his early disdain for politics and agitation/propaganda - it would have been easy for him to swear off politics and concentrate a career in law.
                Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
                (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

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                • #9
                  I can just see the commericals now on late night TV:

                  Were you hurt in an auto accident? Hurt on the job working for the capitalist oppressor? Call V.I. Lenin, attorney at law....1-800-COMI.....
                  Pvt. Bob Mana,
                  Co. B, 3rd Maryland Vol. Infantry, 1st Brigade, 1st Division, 12th Corps, Union Army of the Potomac

                  For the Union

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                  • #10
                    Re: Re: Re: Lenin the lawyer?

                    Originally posted by hogdriver
                    According to the source I read, "Lenin lost both parents as a child, and his brother, who had taken part in a plot against Tsar Alexander III"
                    I do nor remember exact date of death of his parents but as I remember Lenin didn't lose both parents when he was child. I study Lenin's byography in school and even in kindergarten - ;-).

                    Re-read my post. This is a hypothetical situation.
                    Oh, sorry, I understood you that you describes real events.

                    From what I have read, it is not at all unlikely that Lenin could have followed another path - given his brother's fate, and his early disdain for politics and agitation/propaganda - it would have been easy for him to swear off politics and concentrate a career in law. [/B]
                    Lenin began his revolutionary activity for long time before 1905, he was one of leaders of party and only VERY important reason had to force him to stop revolution activity. I disagree that 1905 year events could be such reason.

                    But commonly I suppose that it could be better for Russia (and all other world) if Lenin stop his revolution activity in that time.

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                    • #11
                      I suppose that it could be better for Russia (and all other world) if Lenin stop his revolution activity in that time.
                      So you think the USSR would have collapsed without Lenin to lead it?
                      Delegate, MN GOP.

                      PATRIA SI, COMUNISMO NO

                      http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/p...?id=1156276727

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SGT Long
                        So you think the USSR would have collapsed without Lenin to lead it?
                        I suppose that Russia had no to modify in USSR in case of Lenin didn't be leader of RSDRP(B).

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by PvtManaCoB3MD
                          I can just see the commericals now on late night TV:

                          Were you hurt in an auto accident? Hurt on the job working for the capitalist oppressor? Call V.I. Lenin, attorney at law....1-800-COMI.....
                          yeah, just another ambulance chaser, and a dirty Red at that - the worst of both worlds.
                          Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
                          (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Andrey
                            I suppose that Russia had no to modify in USSR in case of Lenin didn't be leader of RSDRP(B).
                            it can be another thread to think of the Bolsheviks led by Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Ordzhonikidze, etc. For one interest, would any of them have accepted Stalin into the Party? Had they not, which of them would have succeeded Lenin, and how would the course or Russian and world history have proceeded. Would any of them have pursued collectivization of agriculture so ruthlessly? Would the show trials and purges have occurred? If not, could a stronger, more well-led Red Army have stopped the Nazis in June 1941? If so, it is quite possible that World War II may have ended is 1941, rather than 1945. The Soviet Union would not have lost the millions who died during the war. Quite a different sequence of events, yes?
                            Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
                            (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

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                            • #15
                              Am of the school of belief that one person is not what history depends on to move along as it did in the sense of the big picture. It's really about a collective of personality types that are numberous in each type and it just depends on your wit, work, and luck if you have an impact on history. If you don't then the next type will surface up soon or later. Having said that, each person's make up does cause the outcomes to slightly deviate from that of other but only in small picture.

                              What am saying is that if no Lenin then the next leftist revolutionary leader would surface and the Bolshevik overthrow still happens. The Bolshevik had enough personality types in that cadre of members. I would suggest it would be Trotsky. Yes Lenin was a spark plug and a hard driver but the Bolshevik underground network was already in place in some key Russia cities waiting on their leader to give the signal. Trotsky would have no problem handling that and he proved in the later civil war he was talented.

                              Trotsky and others in the leadership would impediment all the Bolshevik programs of collectivation, nationalization, confiscations, attack the aristocracy and their class enemies, and other actions. This was not only Lenin's ideals it is what leftist revolutionaries do. So Lenin's absence does not matter except in the small picture because another leader could have extended or shorten the programs cited above but they still happen to some degree.


                              Please remember the leftist revolutionaries days were numbered. When Lenin died, the ruthless Stalin began the long and deadly secret campaigne that resulted in the dead of the leftist revolutionaries inculding Trotsky and thousands of their supporters. Stalin now imposes a socialism in one country policy that turns Russia into a giant prison in which all dissent or anything consider dissent was executed or imprisoned. Leftist revolution for russians was now dead.

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