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  • Carl Schwamberg
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    The siege on Corregidor lasted over 4 months.

    No, the actual seige did not start until after Batan fell, and lasted weeks, not months. Also, it was an Island, most of that was preliminary bombardment. Once troops were landed, it was all over very quickly.
    I think someone was unaware there were two assualts on Corrigidor. The second was led by US paratroopers who captured several key positions whithin hours.

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  • Carl Schwamberg
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    I was refering to the ability of an Italian task-force to avoid interception, but after looking at Cape Matapan again, I have to withdraw that idea.
    And

    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    ..... However, I have no answer to the post that said Spain had a different RR gage than the rest of Europe. That throws all my calculations off.
    That... and the fact that Britain seems to have had a conjurer's ability to create new reserves at crucial times and quickly shuttle them to the danger zones. THis actualy worked agaisnt them at Greece and Singapore, but another Pennisular campaign would have been a very different kettle of fish.

    Okay, I'm done with this one. Perhaps NOT the ultimate nightmare scenario... but still scarey.
    Damm, not only accepting counter arguments, but doing so twice, and with grace. Sir, I am humbled and awed

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  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Have you ever seen a picture of Gibraltar?

    Very good ones have been posted on this very thread, and thanks for those, gang, nice work!

    The siege on Corregidor lasted over 4 months.

    No, the actual seige did not start until after Batan fell, and lasted weeks, not months. Also, it was an Island, most of that was preliminary bombardment. Once troops were landed, it was all over very quickly.

    Must be one hell of a speed advantage, Taranto is over 1000 miles from Cyprus, Alexandria less than 300.

    I was refering to the ability of an Italian task-force to avoid interception, but after looking at Cape Matapan again, I have to withdraw that idea.

    I would NEVER use Spaniards to lead the assault, as I said earlier- I would have used IRGD and a Mountain Div.

    ..... However, I have no answer to the post that said Spain had a different RR gage than the rest of Europe. That throws all my calculations off.
    That... and the fact that Britain seems to have had a conjurer's ability to create new reserves at crucial times and quickly shuttle them to the danger zones. THis actualy worked agaisnt them at Greece and Singapore, but another Pennisular campaign would have been a very different kettle of fish.

    Okay, I'm done with this one. Perhaps NOT the ultimate nightmare scenario... but still scarey.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lonewulf
    replied
    If and this is a big if, if Gibraltar was under siege by the Spanish and eventually fell; how long however is anyone's guess, and Italy managed to secure Malta which is unlikely but lets just say they manage it, and if the Axis in Libya could have mounted proper attacks and were able to push to the Suez and secure that, then and only then would the Allies in the Medit. be in some serious shi*. Otherwise Gibraltar's net worth is attached to the Suez. Both Suez and Gibraltar both need to be taken for it to have any impact in the Mediterranean.

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  • Gooner
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    Anyone ever heard of Eban-Emal ?
    Have you ever seen a picture of Gibraltar?

    Corrigedor have over a dozen cannon of 10-14", and twice as many 12" Mortars, and look what happened there!
    The siege on Corregidor lasted over 4 months.

    After the Rock, would Malta have been able to hold out?
    Yeah sure why not? If the British in light of these new events abandon the idea of the Greece expedition they should have no trouble holding Cyrenaica.

    Would Cunningham and the fleet have been able to respond to an Italian thrust to Cyprus, before the tiny garrison there was over-whelmed, and Italian airpower had established a foot-hold there?
    I ask this because Italian ships has sacrificed almost everything in order to gain a speed advantage over British ships, and in this case, if might have proven decisive.
    Must be one hell of a speed advantage, Taranto is over 1000 miles from Cyprus, Alexandria less than 300.

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  • Carl Schwamberg
    replied
    Originally posted by UGLYGUTS View Post
    I reckon gibralter would fall, but in terms of the main problem of threats to ships in the strait it dont matter, gibraltar isnt the worlds best airport,
    sure they could line it with guns, but without radar, night shipping is still possible.
    Actually mines and torpedo boats (both surface and submarine) were what Britian used to close the straits to ships they did not like. Spain would use the same to close it to British ships. German & Italian help would be necessary of course, the Italians were actually fairly good with torpedos and Germany had a suitable radar. Heavy artillery suitable for shooting at ships can be located at many places along the strait and is not essential in any case.

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  • UGLYGUTS
    replied
    That crafty old bulldog bless him, i always found it amusing how winnie rated the importance that britain got seville oranges for the nations marmalade,

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  • Surrey
    replied
    Interestingly Churchhill was sufficiently concerned about Spain to spend millions bribing selected Spanish generals to persuade Franco not to join the Nazis.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...al-Franco.html

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  • UGLYGUTS
    replied
    I reckon gibralter would fall, but in terms of the main problem of threats to ships in the strait it dont matter, gibraltar isnt the worlds best airport,
    sure they could line it with guns, but without radar, night shipping is still possible.

    Thing is, once that act is done spain becomes obsolete to the axis, there capacity to do much more would be limited, what little navy and merchent fleet they had would be blitzed very quickly.

    They could provide ports for U-boats maybe, but spain itself is all but shot its load.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lonewulf
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    What the hell is it that gives Gibraltar such an aura in total invincibility? Is there something religious at work here?
    No, we are talking about the Spanish trying to take it

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    What the hell is it that gives Gibraltar such an aura in total invincibility? Is there something religious at work here?

    Yes, I know that it was attacked with smooth-bore guns back in Napoleon's day, so what?

    Anyone ever heard of Eban-Emal ?


    Singapore was called the Gibraltar of the East. The legendary artillery in that place was actually pathetic- 3x15" guns, 2x9.2" guns and a couple dozen old 6" guns.
    Corrigedor have over a dozen cannon of 10-14", and twice as many 12" Mortars, and look what happened there!
    Does ANYONE here have a list of the arty present at Gib in 1940?


    The RN was roughly handled at Crete just a few months later. Gib would have been much closer to Axis airfields, allowing "shuttle-bombing" of any ships within gunfire-support range of the Rock.


    Okay, enough of the elementary stuff.
    After the Rock, would Malta have been able to hold out? Would Cunningham and the fleet have been able to respond to an Italian thrust to Cyprus, before the tiny garrison there was over-whelmed, and Italian airpower had established a foot-hold there?
    I ask this because Italian ships has sacrificed almost everything in order to gain a speed advantage over British ships, and in this case, if might have proven decisive.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lonewulf
    replied
    I think logistically, that best that probably could have been done was to have strategically bombed Gibraltar Airbases and Port to utter ruin, other then that taking Gibraltar with men would have cost way too many men on the axis side which is is exactly why Hitler scraped the idea of taking Gibraltar. Also to note, a Allied navy most likely would have been in and around the area providing logistics for any attack against the heavily fortified rock, ergo making even an air-attack costly as can be.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
    Spain had a different railway gauge to the rest of Europe.



    The last siege of Gibraltar lasted three and a half years ... what technological advances have suddenly neutralised the immense natural and man-made defensive advantages of the Rock?
    BTW the civilian population of Gibraltar mostly been evacuated.
    What technological advanes?!
    ****ing hell... and I thought OUR Army had lousey Colonels!

    Leave a comment:


  • Carl Schwamberg
    replied
    A different railway guage?? that settles it. Diversions only on the Iberian penensula. Actually I'd make the intial effort on the Africa side, isolating and securing Spainish Morroco. Not much the Axis can do about that other than lose a lot of aircraft and men on another stratigic dead end for them. From the Africa side the strait can be just as effectively controled as the other.

    In any case from June 1940 to May 1943 95% of the British or Allied supplies to Egypt and the Middle East went around Africa, so having the straits closed for a while does not change much. If someone on the Axis side wants to obsess over Gibraltar and waste military power badly needed on the main fron in Russia by fighting over the Gibraltar straits then let them.

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  • Gooner
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    Timeline- October, 1940.
    Spain joins the Axis, Gibraltar is assaulted by the GrossDeutschland Infantry Regiment, supported by a Mountain DIvision, several Assault artillery detachments and Luflotte 3. Backing all this up are 2 batteries of 24cm guns and 3 of 28cm railroad guns. Two dozen captured French railway guns have been tranfered to the Spanish army, temporarly satisfying Franco's demands for artillery to defend his shores.
    Spain had a different railway gauge to the rest of Europe.

    Gibraltar falls within 3 days, cassualties are moderate to high among the assualt battalions, care of the many civilians in Gibraltar is handed over to Spain.
    The last siege of Gibraltar lasted three and a half years ... what technological advances have suddenly neutralised the immense natural and man-made defensive advantages of the Rock?
    BTW the civilian population of Gibraltar mostly been evacuated.

    Leave a comment:

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