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  • #46
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    What the hell is it that gives Gibraltar such an aura in total invincibility? Is there something religious at work here?
    No, we are talking about the Spanish trying to take it
    If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

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    • #47
      I reckon gibralter would fall, but in terms of the main problem of threats to ships in the strait it dont matter, gibraltar isnt the worlds best airport,
      sure they could line it with guns, but without radar, night shipping is still possible.

      Thing is, once that act is done spain becomes obsolete to the axis, there capacity to do much more would be limited, what little navy and merchent fleet they had would be blitzed very quickly.

      They could provide ports for U-boats maybe, but spain itself is all but shot its load.
      Sealion would have failed..............runs,

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      • #48
        Interestingly Churchhill was sufficiently concerned about Spain to spend millions bribing selected Spanish generals to persuade Franco not to join the Nazis.

        http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...al-Franco.html
        "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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        • #49
          That crafty old bulldog bless him, i always found it amusing how winnie rated the importance that britain got seville oranges for the nations marmalade,
          Sealion would have failed..............runs,

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          • #50
            Originally posted by UGLYGUTS View Post
            I reckon gibralter would fall, but in terms of the main problem of threats to ships in the strait it dont matter, gibraltar isnt the worlds best airport,
            sure they could line it with guns, but without radar, night shipping is still possible.
            Actually mines and torpedo boats (both surface and submarine) were what Britian used to close the straits to ships they did not like. Spain would use the same to close it to British ships. German & Italian help would be necessary of course, the Italians were actually fairly good with torpedos and Germany had a suitable radar. Heavy artillery suitable for shooting at ships can be located at many places along the strait and is not essential in any case.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
              Anyone ever heard of Eban-Emal ?
              Have you ever seen a picture of Gibraltar?

              Corrigedor have over a dozen cannon of 10-14", and twice as many 12" Mortars, and look what happened there!
              The siege on Corregidor lasted over 4 months.

              After the Rock, would Malta have been able to hold out?
              Yeah sure why not? If the British in light of these new events abandon the idea of the Greece expedition they should have no trouble holding Cyrenaica.

              Would Cunningham and the fleet have been able to respond to an Italian thrust to Cyprus, before the tiny garrison there was over-whelmed, and Italian airpower had established a foot-hold there?
              I ask this because Italian ships has sacrificed almost everything in order to gain a speed advantage over British ships, and in this case, if might have proven decisive.
              Must be one hell of a speed advantage, Taranto is over 1000 miles from Cyprus, Alexandria less than 300.

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              • #52
                If and this is a big if, if Gibraltar was under siege by the Spanish and eventually fell; how long however is anyone's guess, and Italy managed to secure Malta which is unlikely but lets just say they manage it, and if the Axis in Libya could have mounted proper attacks and were able to push to the Suez and secure that, then and only then would the Allies in the Medit. be in some serious shi*. Otherwise Gibraltar's net worth is attached to the Suez. Both Suez and Gibraltar both need to be taken for it to have any impact in the Mediterranean.
                If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

                There never was a good war or a bad peace.

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                • #53
                  Have you ever seen a picture of Gibraltar?

                  Very good ones have been posted on this very thread, and thanks for those, gang, nice work!

                  The siege on Corregidor lasted over 4 months.

                  No, the actual seige did not start until after Batan fell, and lasted weeks, not months. Also, it was an Island, most of that was preliminary bombardment. Once troops were landed, it was all over very quickly.

                  Must be one hell of a speed advantage, Taranto is over 1000 miles from Cyprus, Alexandria less than 300.

                  I was refering to the ability of an Italian task-force to avoid interception, but after looking at Cape Matapan again, I have to withdraw that idea.

                  I would NEVER use Spaniards to lead the assault, as I said earlier- I would have used IRGD and a Mountain Div.

                  ..... However, I have no answer to the post that said Spain had a different RR gage than the rest of Europe. That throws all my calculations off.
                  That... and the fact that Britain seems to have had a conjurer's ability to create new reserves at crucial times and quickly shuttle them to the danger zones. THis actualy worked agaisnt them at Greece and Singapore, but another Pennisular campaign would have been a very different kettle of fish.

                  Okay, I'm done with this one. Perhaps NOT the ultimate nightmare scenario... but still scarey.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                    I was refering to the ability of an Italian task-force to avoid interception, but after looking at Cape Matapan again, I have to withdraw that idea.
                    And

                    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                    ..... However, I have no answer to the post that said Spain had a different RR gage than the rest of Europe. That throws all my calculations off.
                    That... and the fact that Britain seems to have had a conjurer's ability to create new reserves at crucial times and quickly shuttle them to the danger zones. THis actualy worked agaisnt them at Greece and Singapore, but another Pennisular campaign would have been a very different kettle of fish.

                    Okay, I'm done with this one. Perhaps NOT the ultimate nightmare scenario... but still scarey.
                    Damm, not only accepting counter arguments, but doing so twice, and with grace. Sir, I am humbled and awed

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                      The siege on Corregidor lasted over 4 months.

                      No, the actual seige did not start until after Batan fell, and lasted weeks, not months. Also, it was an Island, most of that was preliminary bombardment. Once troops were landed, it was all over very quickly.
                      I think someone was unaware there were two assualts on Corrigidor. The second was led by US paratroopers who captured several key positions whithin hours.

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