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  • #31
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    WIth the Western Med taken care of, perhaps Musollini would have said "to hell with the small=potatoes" and bypassed Greece, and taken Cyprus... which was held by just a battalion at the time.
    And what about Cunningham and the Fleet at Alexandria?

    Good luck with that project ...

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Legate View Post
      Another thing to ponder. The allies would probably arm the recently defeated Republican Forces and use them in some sort of invasion of Spain. Possibly via Portugal. If Spain joined the Axis,I cant see Portugal remaining neutral.
      Only issue with mainland Spain being invaded is that with regards to Portugal, they were more a fascist government then a democracy, but they were more favorable with the Allies then the Axis. Also Spain and Portugal had a treaty of friendship and mutual non-aggression, so that also could cause an issue if Spain were invaded by the Allies.
      If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

      There never was a good war or a bad peace.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Lonewulf View Post
        Only issue with mainland Spain being invaded is that with regards to Portugal, they were more a fascist government then a democracy, but they were more favorable with the Allies then the Axis. Also Spain and Portugal had a treaty of friendship and mutual non-aggression, so that also could cause an issue if Spain were invaded by the Allies.

        "The Anglo-Portuguese Alliance between England (succeeded by the United Kingdom) and Portugal is the oldest alliance in the world which is still in force. It was signed in 1373."
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Portuguese_Alliance

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Gooner View Post
          "The Anglo-Portuguese Alliance between England (succeeded by the United Kingdom) and Portugal is the oldest alliance in the world which is still in force. It was signed in 1373."
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Portuguese_Alliance
          No doubt, you are correct. I think though during World War 2 as the Portuguese government stands, Portugal would never have declared war on Spain, so they probably would have remained Neutral.
          If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

          There never was a good war or a bad peace.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Legate View Post
            Another thing to ponder. The allies would probably arm the recently defeated Republican Forces and use them in some sort of invasion of Spain. Possibly via Portugal. If Spain joined the Axis,I cant see Portugal remaining neutral.

            Good point, i do not see portugal being scared of spain, infact they would probably relish it.
            My brain just died on me and ive forgot the rules of the thread, but if america is still going to come in, im starting to think, spain joining the axis, may become a plus for the allies, spain has a lot of coast to defend, and i feel they would get minimal help in doing it.
            The spanish military itself at the time was in pretty poor shape, even though they had a lot of men with combat experience.

            There navy was not a patch on that of the italians and we dealt with that pretty well, if only we could whip there football team like that.

            Spanish airforce at the time is not something im too knowledgeable about, but im going to assume it would be on a level or less than the italians, and im going to assume spanish production and access to oil would be poor too.

            Taking that into account, if we stripped them of boats, which i feel we would have done, i reckon spains resolve would weaken very quickly, and they have loverly coasts to land on.

            Infact we have held the beaches in spain for forty years without a shot

            The canary islands would be via targets too, and very valuable imho
            Sealion would have failed..............runs,

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            • #36
              Spain as a alternate Allied entry into Europe?

              I pondered this one a bit and came to the conclusion that invading Spain would be usefull as a diversion, and for reopening the Western Med. But as the main event it is inferior to Northwestern France. While I cant say if the Iberian ports are inferior to those of Western France they are definitly not in the same league as Antwerp or Marsailles. More important the likely invasion sites in spain are well over 1000 kilometer further from the Ruhr than NW France, the railroad network in Spain was not as robust as that in NW France & Belgium, the automoble roads of the 1940s inferior, and the terrain considerablly more rugged and defensible.

              So my strategy would be to organize a Free Spainish group, stir up a anti Facist undergound in Spain, install a Allied army near the Straits of Gibraltar to reopen them, execute deception measures to draw even more Axis ground and airforces into Spain. Then when Ike and Monty invade Normandy I'd watch and laugh as all those Axis ground units struggled northwards to France along bad highways and sabotaged railroads.

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              • #37
                Actually Germany had a plan to invade Spain and secure Gibraltar if Spain was unreasonable, Hitler eventually scraped the plan.
                If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

                There never was a good war or a bad peace.

                Comment


                • #38
                  I think you guys are going too far forward here.

                  Timeline- October, 1940.
                  Spain joins the Axis, Gibraltar is assaulted by the GrossDeutschland Infantry Regiment, supported by a Mountain DIvision, several Assault artillery detachments and Luflotte 3. Backing all this up are 2 batteries of 24cm guns and 3 of 28cm railroad guns. Two dozen captured French railway guns have been tranfered to the Spanish army, temporarly satisfying Franco's demands for artillery to defend his shores.

                  Gibraltar falls within 3 days, cassualties are moderate to high among the assualt battalions, care of the many civilians in Gibraltar is handed over to Spain.

                  Britian stands alone, and will continue to do so until June of 41. WIthout the trained troops available to take adavantage of Spain's vulnerable coast, what can they do?

                  (with just one heavy and 3 light cruisers, Spain's navy is not a factor, but thier many experianced aviators are another story. Could Prince of Wales and Repulse meet the same fate in a different sea?)

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                  • #39
                    October 1940, that seems awfully soon after the Spanish Civil War, I'm not sure the Spanish people would have went for that, plus The Spanish Armed Forces unless directly supported by Germany could not and would not have achieved victory even over Gibraltar in 1940.
                    If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

                    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      We would have to play a different game for sure, but i dont see our demise in this.

                      In terms of supply, its a pain in the butt, and if it happens at a certain point, there would be no taranto, and possibly no inspiration for pearl harbour, but as long as we controled the seas and oceans, which i feel to be certain over time, and the skies over britain, we were in business,

                      strategy would have to change, which is fun for us to discuss, imagine your the war cabinet, we must stand alone with our commonwealth chums or the world is pretty much donald ducked.

                      What strategy do we adopt.
                      Sealion would have failed..............runs,

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                        Timeline- October, 1940.
                        Spain joins the Axis, Gibraltar is assaulted by the GrossDeutschland Infantry Regiment, supported by a Mountain DIvision, several Assault artillery detachments and Luflotte 3. Backing all this up are 2 batteries of 24cm guns and 3 of 28cm railroad guns. Two dozen captured French railway guns have been tranfered to the Spanish army, temporarly satisfying Franco's demands for artillery to defend his shores.
                        Spain had a different railway gauge to the rest of Europe.

                        Gibraltar falls within 3 days, cassualties are moderate to high among the assualt battalions, care of the many civilians in Gibraltar is handed over to Spain.
                        The last siege of Gibraltar lasted three and a half years ... what technological advances have suddenly neutralised the immense natural and man-made defensive advantages of the Rock?
                        BTW the civilian population of Gibraltar mostly been evacuated.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          A different railway guage?? that settles it. Diversions only on the Iberian penensula. Actually I'd make the intial effort on the Africa side, isolating and securing Spainish Morroco. Not much the Axis can do about that other than lose a lot of aircraft and men on another stratigic dead end for them. From the Africa side the strait can be just as effectively controled as the other.

                          In any case from June 1940 to May 1943 95% of the British or Allied supplies to Egypt and the Middle East went around Africa, so having the straits closed for a while does not change much. If someone on the Axis side wants to obsess over Gibraltar and waste military power badly needed on the main fron in Russia by fighting over the Gibraltar straits then let them.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                            Spain had a different railway gauge to the rest of Europe.



                            The last siege of Gibraltar lasted three and a half years ... what technological advances have suddenly neutralised the immense natural and man-made defensive advantages of the Rock?
                            BTW the civilian population of Gibraltar mostly been evacuated.
                            What technological advanes?!
                            ****ing hell... and I thought OUR Army had lousey Colonels!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I think logistically, that best that probably could have been done was to have strategically bombed Gibraltar Airbases and Port to utter ruin, other then that taking Gibraltar with men would have cost way too many men on the axis side which is is exactly why Hitler scraped the idea of taking Gibraltar. Also to note, a Allied navy most likely would have been in and around the area providing logistics for any attack against the heavily fortified rock, ergo making even an air-attack costly as can be.
                              If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

                              There never was a good war or a bad peace.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                What the hell is it that gives Gibraltar such an aura in total invincibility? Is there something religious at work here?

                                Yes, I know that it was attacked with smooth-bore guns back in Napoleon's day, so what?

                                Anyone ever heard of Eban-Emal ?


                                Singapore was called the Gibraltar of the East. The legendary artillery in that place was actually pathetic- 3x15" guns, 2x9.2" guns and a couple dozen old 6" guns.
                                Corrigedor have over a dozen cannon of 10-14", and twice as many 12" Mortars, and look what happened there!
                                Does ANYONE here have a list of the arty present at Gib in 1940?


                                The RN was roughly handled at Crete just a few months later. Gib would have been much closer to Axis airfields, allowing "shuttle-bombing" of any ships within gunfire-support range of the Rock.


                                Okay, enough of the elementary stuff.
                                After the Rock, would Malta have been able to hold out? Would Cunningham and the fleet have been able to respond to an Italian thrust to Cyprus, before the tiny garrison there was over-whelmed, and Italian airpower had established a foot-hold there?
                                I ask this because Italian ships has sacrificed almost everything in order to gain a speed advantage over British ships, and in this case, if might have proven decisive.

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