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  • UGLYGUTS
    replied
    We would have to play a different game for sure, but i dont see our demise in this.

    In terms of supply, its a pain in the butt, and if it happens at a certain point, there would be no taranto, and possibly no inspiration for pearl harbour, but as long as we controled the seas and oceans, which i feel to be certain over time, and the skies over britain, we were in business,

    strategy would have to change, which is fun for us to discuss, imagine your the war cabinet, we must stand alone with our commonwealth chums or the world is pretty much donald ducked.

    What strategy do we adopt.

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  • Lonewulf
    replied
    October 1940, that seems awfully soon after the Spanish Civil War, I'm not sure the Spanish people would have went for that, plus The Spanish Armed Forces unless directly supported by Germany could not and would not have achieved victory even over Gibraltar in 1940.

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  • The Exorcist
    replied
    I think you guys are going too far forward here.

    Timeline- October, 1940.
    Spain joins the Axis, Gibraltar is assaulted by the GrossDeutschland Infantry Regiment, supported by a Mountain DIvision, several Assault artillery detachments and Luflotte 3. Backing all this up are 2 batteries of 24cm guns and 3 of 28cm railroad guns. Two dozen captured French railway guns have been tranfered to the Spanish army, temporarly satisfying Franco's demands for artillery to defend his shores.

    Gibraltar falls within 3 days, cassualties are moderate to high among the assualt battalions, care of the many civilians in Gibraltar is handed over to Spain.

    Britian stands alone, and will continue to do so until June of 41. WIthout the trained troops available to take adavantage of Spain's vulnerable coast, what can they do?

    (with just one heavy and 3 light cruisers, Spain's navy is not a factor, but thier many experianced aviators are another story. Could Prince of Wales and Repulse meet the same fate in a different sea?)

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  • Lonewulf
    replied
    Actually Germany had a plan to invade Spain and secure Gibraltar if Spain was unreasonable, Hitler eventually scraped the plan.

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  • Carl Schwamberg
    replied
    Spain as a alternate Allied entry into Europe?

    I pondered this one a bit and came to the conclusion that invading Spain would be usefull as a diversion, and for reopening the Western Med. But as the main event it is inferior to Northwestern France. While I cant say if the Iberian ports are inferior to those of Western France they are definitly not in the same league as Antwerp or Marsailles. More important the likely invasion sites in spain are well over 1000 kilometer further from the Ruhr than NW France, the railroad network in Spain was not as robust as that in NW France & Belgium, the automoble roads of the 1940s inferior, and the terrain considerablly more rugged and defensible.

    So my strategy would be to organize a Free Spainish group, stir up a anti Facist undergound in Spain, install a Allied army near the Straits of Gibraltar to reopen them, execute deception measures to draw even more Axis ground and airforces into Spain. Then when Ike and Monty invade Normandy I'd watch and laugh as all those Axis ground units struggled northwards to France along bad highways and sabotaged railroads.

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  • UGLYGUTS
    replied
    Originally posted by Legate View Post
    Another thing to ponder. The allies would probably arm the recently defeated Republican Forces and use them in some sort of invasion of Spain. Possibly via Portugal. If Spain joined the Axis,I cant see Portugal remaining neutral.

    Good point, i do not see portugal being scared of spain, infact they would probably relish it.
    My brain just died on me and ive forgot the rules of the thread, but if america is still going to come in, im starting to think, spain joining the axis, may become a plus for the allies, spain has a lot of coast to defend, and i feel they would get minimal help in doing it.
    The spanish military itself at the time was in pretty poor shape, even though they had a lot of men with combat experience.

    There navy was not a patch on that of the italians and we dealt with that pretty well, if only we could whip there football team like that.

    Spanish airforce at the time is not something im too knowledgeable about, but im going to assume it would be on a level or less than the italians, and im going to assume spanish production and access to oil would be poor too.

    Taking that into account, if we stripped them of boats, which i feel we would have done, i reckon spains resolve would weaken very quickly, and they have loverly coasts to land on.

    Infact we have held the beaches in spain for forty years without a shot

    The canary islands would be via targets too, and very valuable imho

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  • Lonewulf
    replied
    Originally posted by Gooner View Post
    "The Anglo-Portuguese Alliance between England (succeeded by the United Kingdom) and Portugal is the oldest alliance in the world which is still in force. It was signed in 1373."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Portuguese_Alliance
    No doubt, you are correct. I think though during World War 2 as the Portuguese government stands, Portugal would never have declared war on Spain, so they probably would have remained Neutral.

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  • Gooner
    replied
    Originally posted by Lonewulf View Post
    Only issue with mainland Spain being invaded is that with regards to Portugal, they were more a fascist government then a democracy, but they were more favorable with the Allies then the Axis. Also Spain and Portugal had a treaty of friendship and mutual non-aggression, so that also could cause an issue if Spain were invaded by the Allies.

    "The Anglo-Portuguese Alliance between England (succeeded by the United Kingdom) and Portugal is the oldest alliance in the world which is still in force. It was signed in 1373."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Portuguese_Alliance

    Leave a comment:


  • Lonewulf
    replied
    Originally posted by Legate View Post
    Another thing to ponder. The allies would probably arm the recently defeated Republican Forces and use them in some sort of invasion of Spain. Possibly via Portugal. If Spain joined the Axis,I cant see Portugal remaining neutral.
    Only issue with mainland Spain being invaded is that with regards to Portugal, they were more a fascist government then a democracy, but they were more favorable with the Allies then the Axis. Also Spain and Portugal had a treaty of friendship and mutual non-aggression, so that also could cause an issue if Spain were invaded by the Allies.

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  • Gooner
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    WIth the Western Med taken care of, perhaps Musollini would have said "to hell with the small=potatoes" and bypassed Greece, and taken Cyprus... which was held by just a battalion at the time.
    And what about Cunningham and the Fleet at Alexandria?

    Good luck with that project ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Legate
    replied
    Another thing to ponder. The allies would probably arm the recently defeated Republican Forces and use them in some sort of invasion of Spain. Possibly via Portugal. If Spain joined the Axis,I cant see Portugal remaining neutral.

    Leave a comment:


  • UGLYGUTS
    replied
    we need to examine strategy changes that would need or would have happened.

    I do not see capitulation on the cards, but deadlock, maybe, the spanish navy would have been despatched in very short order, of that there is little doubt, but after gibralter fell, which to my mind would be inevitable, focus would shift back to scandinavia after time i feel,

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  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Spain joinng the Axis after the fall of France would have been the ultimate nightmare scenario, IMHO.

    Land-based air trumps naval power, and the Luftwaffe existed in such numbers that RN Aircraft carriers at that time would have been over-whelmed. Gibraltar would have fallen, eventualy, as was the case with every other fortified position that came under serious attack in WW2. Germany had more then enough 24cm and 28cm railroad guns to make sure of that.

    WIth the Western Med taken care of, perhaps Musollini would have said "to hell with the small=potatoes" and bypassed Greece, and taken Cyprus... which was held by just a battalion at the time. With Regia torpedo planes in range of the Suez, the pedestrian Italian advance into Egypt would have seemed much more menacing... would Britain have been forced to capitulate?

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  • Lonewulf
    replied
    I have to say anyway you look at it, would YOU like some setting up camp in your backyard.

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  • Full Monty
    replied
    Originally posted by MaCroto View Post
    I'm not so shure about it, but i've heard in documentary that British beaten off the germans at EL Alamein becouse they held malta
    No. Malta was effectively neutralised in the Spring and Summer of 1942

    http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsRNMed2.htm

    allowing the Axis forces to build up supplies for Rommel's planned limited offensive.

    http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resour...oppe/toppe.asp

    "January-June 1942

    During this period, transportation was favored by German superiority in the air, which was gained by the German Second Air Force under Kesselring and also by the fact that Malta was suppressed. The transportation of troops and supplies functioned smoothly and with few losses. Enough supplies were moved forward to enable the German-Italian Army to launch an offensive with limited objectives that advanced as far as the borders of Egypt in May-June."

    Fortunately (for the Allies) Rommel foolishly exceeded his remit and the supply capabilities of his logistical services by advancing far into Egypt. The supplies built up in Tripoli and Benghazi were virtually useless in these circumstances. Tobruk, whilst useful, was of limited capacity and supply shipping routed there was well within range of bombers and submarines operating out of Alexandria. Not only that, but the supply issues meant that the Axis air forces could not operate in any strength from whatever forward air bases they could construct in Egypt, further exacerbating Rommel's self-inflicted logistical problems as the RAF was able to strike at his supply columns winding along the desert roads. I wouldn't go as far as to suggest that aircraft and ships operating out of Malta in the Autumn of 1942 played no role in disrupting Rommel's supply lines but his initial repulse at 1st Alamein and his subsequent defeat at Alam Halfa were not. 2nd Alamein should be regarded as the coup de grace of an extended battle that lasted from the end of June to the beginning of November 1942.

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