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  • #16
    Originally posted by AdrianE View Post
    The result would have been starvation for the Spanish populace. The Spanish were buying grain from Canada. Germany couldn't replace that as they were short on food as it was.
    Do you have a good source for that. There are folks who claim Germany provided Spain with all the grain it required. I have my doubts, particlarly for after 1941, but lack any knowledge of the grain trade of the 1940s.

    I am also wondering where Spain accquired any oil it needed, or coal. Could Germany afford to allow Rumanian oil to be sold to Spain when its armed forces and industry were already short of requirements in 1941?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Legate View Post
      Imho,1942 might be too late,the tide was turning against Hitler. I think 1941 would have been a better choice,the Axis were on a roll then.
      As for the effect Spain would have on the war,I don't it would alter things drastcly. Other than taking Gibralter,I don't see the Spanish military being that much of a threat to the Allies.
      As for the fall of Gibralter,IIRC most of British shipping went around the Southern tip of Africa,not through the Med.
      be that as it may but with spain controling Gilblartar Germans could captured malta and with it even win North African campain
      and with that oil in his Panzer divisions hitler would rain havoc across the world.
      TOTAL WAR! RULES!(the game)

      History repeats itself!

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      • #18
        Not to mention the effect this would have had on Overlord.
        "The blade itself incites to deeds of violence".

        Homer


        BoRG

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        • #19
          to take giblarter gemans would take few luftwafe squadrons to create pressure and 2 maybe 3 divisions of infantry for mains assault, and about reinforcment to the brithish stationed there germans would secure themselves wits submarine screen to sind the forth coming ships

          and about Malta maybe germans couldn't improve their suplly lines but without malta allies would certanly lose one of their vital ones
          and that trigerrs a whole new set of events
          tirs there would be no invasion of sicily and italy and sicilian grain could replace canadian grain
          italy wouldn't dich out of the war so germans wouldn't have to make another front, they wou have a sceure flank.
          and the war would definetly prolonge to 1946 by witch germay would commision many war machines
          and V2 rockets would be used for military porpuses not civilian bombing of london and so on
          TOTAL WAR! RULES!(the game)

          History repeats itself!

          Comment


          • #20
            I think we can all agree if Spain could and would have joined the Axis, the war in Europe would have been more bloody and lasted a lot longer. I cannot say Spain joining the war would have been an Axis victory, but I can say that by the time the war would have been over the victory over the axis would have tasted as bitter sweet as defeat.
            If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

            There never was a good war or a bad peace.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
              Do you have a good source for that. There are folks who claim Germany provided Spain with all the grain it required. I have my doubts, particlarly for after 1941, but lack any knowledge of the grain trade of the 1940s.
              I don't remember where I came across that info. However Tooze's Wages of Destruction points out that France was recieving Canadian grain and that after France fell Germany had a problem feeding France.

              Edit: This site has the text of the letters exchanged between Franco and the Axis on this topic. http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1940/400808a.html
              Note that specific mention is made about grain from England which is likely from Canada.
              Last edited by AdrianE; 09 Oct 08, 11:44.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by AdrianE View Post
                I don't remember where I came across that info. However Tooze's Wages of Destruction points out that France was recieving Canadian grain and that after France fell Germany had a problem feeding France.

                Edit: This site has the text of the letters exchanged between Franco and the Axis on this topic. http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/policy/1940/400808a.html
                Note that specific mention is made about grain from England which is likely from Canada.
                Ok, thats helpfull. A quick check of Ellis's 'Brute Force' suggests the same problem for oil. With Spain no longer able to import its needs from outside Europe the German resource problem tightens another notch. Spain looks like another weak partner, like the Italians drawing away more in precious material than it can compensate for in real military power.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by MaCroto View Post
                  and about Malta maybe germans couldn't improve their suplly lines but without malta allies would certanly lose one of their vital ones
                  Er, no. North Africa was supplied either via Suez or (once Torch was launched) Morocco or Algeria. Malta was of no consequence to Allied supply lines until Sicily was invaded by which time Malta, if taken by Axis forces, would have been cut off and retaken.
                  Signing out.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                    Er, no. North Africa was supplied either via Suez or (once Torch was launched) Morocco or Algeria. Malta was of no consequence to Allied supply lines until Sicily was invaded by which time Malta, if taken by Axis forces, would have been cut off and retaken.
                    I'm not so shure about it, but i've heard in documentary that British beaten off the germans at EL Alamein becouse they held malta

                    P.s.
                    and where there any carriers in Meditereinian on not?
                    TOTAL WAR! RULES!(the game)

                    History repeats itself!

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by MaCroto View Post
                      I'm not so shure about it, but i've heard in documentary that British beaten off the germans at EL Alamein becouse they held malta
                      Sort of. The role of Malta is debated by by historians. It served as a base for British submarines, air reconissance, bombers, and radio signals intellegence. Most of that could be accomplished from bases in Egypt, tho not as effciently. Somewhere on my shelves is a magazine artical showing the quantity of Italian cargo lost from attacks based in Alexandria vs those orginating in Malta. Even when Malta was fully 'suppresed' and the subs, bombers, and recon planes unable to operate Axis supply at the front lines was still inadaquate.

                      The Axis problem is that even were there no British interdiction of the cargo ships, the Axis would still not have enough trucks to carry the fuel and ammo across the Lybian desert. The thousands of kilometers of bad roads used up more tons of fuel, spare parts, and replacement trucks than tons delivered to the combat units.

                      Also the closer to Egypt they come the more effective Brit air interdiction from there is, interfering with both road and sea supply of the Axis army. So while the British losing Malta make life easier for the Italian ships crews it does not solve all the Axis supply problems.

                      Originally posted by MaCroto View Post
                      P.s.
                      and where there any carriers in Meditereinian on not?
                      Yes, they were sent there several times. Not much manuvering space, and they were always in range of some Axis airbase somewhere, so it was risky. Three were used to support the Pedistal convoy to Malta and one was sunk by a submarine. They were sent again for covering the Torch invasion of Algiers.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by MaCroto View Post
                        I'm not so shure about it, but i've heard in documentary that British beaten off the germans at EL Alamein becouse they held malta
                        No. Malta was effectively neutralised in the Spring and Summer of 1942

                        http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsRNMed2.htm

                        allowing the Axis forces to build up supplies for Rommel's planned limited offensive.

                        http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resour...oppe/toppe.asp

                        "January-June 1942

                        During this period, transportation was favored by German superiority in the air, which was gained by the German Second Air Force under Kesselring and also by the fact that Malta was suppressed. The transportation of troops and supplies functioned smoothly and with few losses. Enough supplies were moved forward to enable the German-Italian Army to launch an offensive with limited objectives that advanced as far as the borders of Egypt in May-June."

                        Fortunately (for the Allies) Rommel foolishly exceeded his remit and the supply capabilities of his logistical services by advancing far into Egypt. The supplies built up in Tripoli and Benghazi were virtually useless in these circumstances. Tobruk, whilst useful, was of limited capacity and supply shipping routed there was well within range of bombers and submarines operating out of Alexandria. Not only that, but the supply issues meant that the Axis air forces could not operate in any strength from whatever forward air bases they could construct in Egypt, further exacerbating Rommel's self-inflicted logistical problems as the RAF was able to strike at his supply columns winding along the desert roads. I wouldn't go as far as to suggest that aircraft and ships operating out of Malta in the Autumn of 1942 played no role in disrupting Rommel's supply lines but his initial repulse at 1st Alamein and his subsequent defeat at Alam Halfa were not. 2nd Alamein should be regarded as the coup de grace of an extended battle that lasted from the end of June to the beginning of November 1942.
                        Signing out.

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                        • #27
                          I have to say anyway you look at it, would YOU like some setting up camp in your backyard.
                          If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

                          There never was a good war or a bad peace.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Spain joinng the Axis after the fall of France would have been the ultimate nightmare scenario, IMHO.

                            Land-based air trumps naval power, and the Luftwaffe existed in such numbers that RN Aircraft carriers at that time would have been over-whelmed. Gibraltar would have fallen, eventualy, as was the case with every other fortified position that came under serious attack in WW2. Germany had more then enough 24cm and 28cm railroad guns to make sure of that.

                            WIth the Western Med taken care of, perhaps Musollini would have said "to hell with the small=potatoes" and bypassed Greece, and taken Cyprus... which was held by just a battalion at the time. With Regia torpedo planes in range of the Suez, the pedestrian Italian advance into Egypt would have seemed much more menacing... would Britain have been forced to capitulate?

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                            • #29
                              we need to examine strategy changes that would need or would have happened.

                              I do not see capitulation on the cards, but deadlock, maybe, the spanish navy would have been despatched in very short order, of that there is little doubt, but after gibralter fell, which to my mind would be inevitable, focus would shift back to scandinavia after time i feel,
                              Sealion would have failed..............runs,

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                              • #30
                                Another thing to ponder. The allies would probably arm the recently defeated Republican Forces and use them in some sort of invasion of Spain. Possibly via Portugal. If Spain joined the Axis,I cant see Portugal remaining neutral.
                                If the art of war were nothing but the art of avoiding risks,glory would become the prey of mediocre minds. Napoleon

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