Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Spain joins Axis

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Spain joins Axis

    I didn't see a post like this, so I figure we can discuss the pros and cons of a Spanish entry into World War 2 during 40-43.

    I would say if ever Spain was to join it would have been in 1942 following the historical time line to that date.
    If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

  • #2
    Imho,1942 might be too late,the tide was turning against Hitler. I think 1941 would have been a better choice,the Axis were on a roll then.
    As for the effect Spain would have on the war,I don't it would alter things drastcly. Other than taking Gibralter,I don't see the Spanish military being that much of a threat to the Allies.
    As for the fall of Gibralter,IIRC most of British shipping went around the Southern tip of Africa,not through the Med.
    If the art of war were nothing but the art of avoiding risks,glory would become the prey of mediocre minds. Napoleon

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Legate View Post
      Imho,1942 might be too late,the tide was turning against Hitler. I think 1941 would have been a better choice,the Axis were on a roll then.
      As for the effect Spain would have on the war,I don't it would alter things drastcly. Other than taking Gibralter,I don't see the Spanish military being that much of a threat to the Allies.
      As for the fall of Gibralter,IIRC most of British shipping went around the Southern tip of Africa,not through the Med.
      I'm sure the Royal Marines would have hated the thought of Gibralter being taken off of us they are very proud of the fact that Gib: is the only battle honour shown on their flags and badges. NOT I might add because it is the only one but because it is tradition.
      'By Horse by Tram'.


      I was in when they needed 'em,not feeded 'em.
      " Youuu 'Orrible Lot!"

      Comment


      • #4
        If the Axis get Gibraltar does not that reduce submarine operations in the Med possibly. This allows more supplies to reach Africa possibly changing the game there. Although it depend on what year Spain enters the war.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by craven View Post
          If the Axis get Gibraltar does not that reduce submarine operations in the Med possibly. This allows more supplies to reach Africa possibly changing the game there. Although it depend on what year Spain enters the war.
          Well, when Franco was courted by the Germans with the aim of getting Spain to join the war he made such heavy demands for materiel that in the end Hitler gave up trying. Even given that Franco had no desire to go to war with the Allies the Spanish were very short of equipment and supplies after their civil war and so would have required extensive support from the Germans just to ensure their security, let alone undertake offensive action.

          As for North Africa, the problem wasn't in getting the supplies there, it was transporting them from Tripoli and Benghazi to wherever the Axis army was. Taking Gibraltar and Malta won't change that.
          Signing out.

          Comment


          • #6
            All good points, however one thing has not been mentioned. If Spain would have joined in 1942 lets say, that would have dis-allowed for the invasion of Morocco or at least would have been re-thought out, this could have allowed Rommel one more chance in Libya/Egypt, and if possible with Suez and Gibraltar captured this could have changed the affect of the whole Mediterranean theater of Operations. In saying this the Spanish could very well have been cannon fodder for the Americans, if indeed Operation Torch were to commence the Americans could not have landed unopposed. November 8 - Operation Torch is underway. 107,000 Allies, mostly Americans, land in Casablanca, Oran and Algiers. In fear of an outflanked Rommel, Axis air and ground units are routed to Tunisia, eventually numbering 250,000 troops. If this being the case, and Gibraltar is occupied no landings beyond Morocco without heavy Naval Damage. Whether or not the Spanish won or lost is besides the point, the liberation of North Africa and the eventual invasion of Italy would have been postponed and an overall new strategy would have had to of been developed.
            If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

            There never was a good war or a bad peace.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Lonewulf View Post
              All good points, however one thing has not been mentioned. If Spain would have joined in 1942 lets say, that would have dis-allowed for the invasion of Morocco or at least would have been re-thought out,
              Yep, the Allies would have invaded the Spanish mainland instead. D'oh.

              Comment


              • #8
                The result would have been starvation for the Spanish populace. The Spanish were buying grain from Canada. Germany couldn't replace that as they were short on food as it was.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                  Yep, the Allies would have invaded the Spanish mainland instead. D'oh.
                  Are you so sure about that? Think about it, an invasion of Spain instead of Operation Torch, neither would serve any purpose at this point. However it is safe to say if Franco joined in 42' the Allies would surely not do Torch and would certainly not invade Spain, would would have happened instead is the Allies would have had to re plan the entire War from that point on. It would essentially have been a different war.
                  If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

                  There never was a good war or a bad peace.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Lonewulf View Post
                    Are you so sure about that? Think about it, an invasion of Spain instead of Operation Torch, neither would serve any purpose at this point. However it is safe to say if Franco joined in 42' the Allies would surely not do Torch and would certainly not invade Spain, would would have happened instead is the Allies would have had to re plan the entire War from that point on.
                    If Franco waits until 1942 (why?) Gibraltar is untakeable.

                    What forces does Spain possess that would be a threat to a force the size of Operation Husky?
                    I think the Allies have to grab the essentially indefensible Canary Islands as a precursor though.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                      If Franco waits until 1942 (why?) Gibraltar is untakeable.

                      What forces does Spain possess that would be a threat to a force the size of Operation Husky?
                      I think the Allies have to grab the essentially indefensible Canary Islands as a precursor though.
                      If it is or is not unattainable, the allies certainly cannot use it as an active base in 42', unless they planned to invade Spain from there which they wouldn't, however I believe it could very well be taken, perhaps at high cost but it could be taken.
                      If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

                      There never was a good war or a bad peace.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Lonewulf View Post
                        If it is or is not unattainable, the allies certainly cannot use it as an active base in 42',
                        True

                        however I believe it could very well be taken, perhaps at high cost but it could be taken.
                        Just like Tobruk in '41, only much much tougher.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          There was "The Blue Division", I doub't Spain could have made a larger contribution.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gooner View Post
                            True



                            Just like Tobruk in '41, only much much tougher.
                            I feel that is accurate, imagine a German Paratroop assault coupled with an Italian Shore landing and an overall Spanish attack from the land. I think that outta do it...if the Italians could get there with the Navy intact, and also to make sure the Germans had Air Supremacy and to also verify the Spanish didn't have second thoughts.
                            Last edited by Lonewulf; 08 Oct 08, 22:00. Reason: minor modification
                            If you sacrifice freedom to obtain some security, you deserve neither and will gain none.

                            There never was a good war or a bad peace.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lonewulf View Post
                              I feel that is accurate, imagine a German Paratroop assault coupled with an Italian Shore landing and an overall Spanish attack from the land. I think that outta do it
                              Paratroop assault landing on what?



                              Shore landing where?



                              Don't worry, there would be nothing the Axis planners could come up with that the defenders hasdn't thought about, thorougly prepared against and endlessly practiced for.

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X