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Did Japan in reality WIN in World War II

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  • #16
    There were also other war crimes trials held against lesser Japanese Officers, Enlisted men and foreign auxiliaries, resulting in numerous executions after the war.

    I heard a true story of an ex-US WWII POW Officer who was later serving during the Korean War. During a meeting with South Korean Officers, he spotted a sadistic, former POW camp guard on the General's Staff, who had carried out summary executions against Allied POW's during the late war. The GI pulled out his .45 and executed the bastard on the spot. He later, received little more than a slap on the wrist for his actions.
    "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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    • #17
      There were some incidents of PoWs killing a few of the worst guards between the surrender and their evacuation. A US Marine embassy guard captured in China described doing exactly that the day the surrender was announced. Specificly he said he snatched the guards rifle from him and bayonetted the man.

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      • #18
        The success that Germany and Japan enjoyed from the war wasn't instantaneous. It took a lot of rebuilding to get where they were. I don't really think that their part of WWII led directly to their success--its more attributed to a generous and forgiving victorious enemy (the US) that led to their after war success. If the US hadn't of stepped in to help after defeating them, what would those countries be like now?
        The First Amendment applies to SMS, Emails, Blogs, online news, the Fourth applies to your cell phone, computer, and your car, but the Second only applies to muskets?

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        • #19
          Its a question of speed of recovery afterwards, something we were worse at than practically anyone.
          It all stems from the revolution in japans education system after the war, a model whether meant or not china is slowly adopting.
          Its easy to feel like, hey we won the war, gave away an empire and wound up flat on our backs, but like japan, anyone can get knocked down, even the brown bomber, but its the measure of you for getting back up again.
          And now we are on the road again, japan has done an awsome job, and im sure i we are honest its one we emulate.
          Sealion would have failed..............runs,

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          • #20
            Originally posted by waldron View Post
            The civilian population of Japan did pay a horrible price for the war.. Much more so than Japan's government or its' military.
            Where did you get that idea???

            http://www.secondworldwar.co.uk/casualty.html

            The above link states 1,506,000 military fatalities vs. 300,000 civilian casualties. Other sources state similar numbers, far more military than civilian casualties.

            Very odd way to improve your country anyway, kill millions of your neighbours and many of your own countrymen to boot. Plus as PatBC states many in the government paid as well. Honestly reflect a bit before posting unverified speculation.

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            • #21
              In my humble opinion once the peace treaty was signed the war was over. Japan lay prostrate, barely able to feed its population virtually no industry and having to care for tens of thousands of wounded civilians and soldiers... Japan lost the war.

              If you are saying they did they achieve their war aims despite losing on the field... they had to let go and see China turn communist. They lost Manchuria and Korea... They lost the ability to produce enough resources to become self-sufficient... So no they did not even achieve their war aims.

              What did happen was Japan won the peace. They changed their goals/culture, achieved (after much hard work and much generousity from America) ecconomic prosperity, and yes they ended up being strongly allied to the USA which um... I don't think was in their plan to win the war.

              WWII happened... The fact that most of the countries that participated in it are better off now than they were before or during the war isn't because of it.... it's in spite of it.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by jp342 View Post
                WWII happened... The fact that most of the countries that participated in it are better off now than they were before or during the war isn't because of it.... it's in spite of it.
                And that goes around the board, too. The winners were better off in many ways than the defeated. Germany and Japan only kept from being utter ruins and lost causes after the war because the Allies smartened up and realized that if they ignored the Germans and Japanese, they would just end up with another war.

                And the cost in lives is another thing that cannot be ignored. The damage to the national psyche of Germany and Japan was enormous. Heck, even 60 years later Germans are still cautious about showing patriotism outside of big soccer matches and the like.

                Japan and (West) Germany were basically puppets of US foriegn policy for the length of the Cold War, and only now are they really starting to show an independent streak. The US gained the most from WW2 hands down, while those who were defeated just didn't loose so badly as they could have.

                The worst off nations were those who were 'liberated' by the Soviets, it seems.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by daemonofdecay View Post
                  Japan and (West) Germany were basically puppets of US foriegn policy for the length of the Cold War, and only now are they really starting to show an independent streak. The US gained the most from WW2 hands down, while those who were defeated just didn't loose so badly as they could have.
                  SIZE]
                  You know I was going to make a much longer post and point out a bunch of things that countries who win wars get to do that Japan didn't get to do. I love these boards and have found a lot of really passionate debate about things that are of great interest to me. Occasionally though, I just have a problem with a premise. This subject was one of those.

                  Those people left in Japan after the war, may believe things eventually turned out better, but I doubt they would ever say "It was really smart for us to attack the USA and the other allies because we ended up with a much stronger country." The only thing good that came of the war for them was they got rid of most of the leaders who's views took them to war. They had to pay a heck of a price to do that and maybe that was the only way, but it could never be said that the war was a good thing.

                  Perhaps not puppets to the US, but in truth very loyal and ardent supporters of most US causes.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by jp342 View Post
                    Perhaps not puppets to the US, but in truth very loyal and ardent supporters of most US causes.
                    While 'puppet' might seem a little harsh, the other western nations vary rarely ever spoke up against whatever the US was doing. They were not true 'puppets' in that they still could refuse to follow the US' lead and we (most likely) would resort to force, but our military and economic backing was key for many governments the world over.

                    If the US had stopped supporting those governments, the costs would have ranged from mere economic problems at home all the way to full on revolution and/or being at the mercy of the Soviet Bloc. So technically they still had a 'choice'.

                    Free will and all that.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by daemonofdecay View Post
                      While 'puppet' might seem a little harsh, the other western nations vary rarely ever spoke up against whatever the US was doing. They were not true 'puppets' in that they still could refuse to follow the US' lead and we (most likely) would resort to force, but our military and economic backing was key for many governments the world over.

                      If the US had stopped supporting those governments, the costs would have ranged from mere economic problems at home all the way to full on revolution and/or being at the mercy of the Soviet Bloc. So technically they still had a 'choice'.

                      Free will and all that.
                      It is not puppet but the fact most times western countries agree with what the US is doing. Of course agreement do not make the headlines or the nightly news.

                      As US ambassador to Canada said once. Most people do not realize all the same interest and value western countries share.

                      Think how tiny of a pebble in your comfortable shoes will still make you stop and dump the rock out.
                      FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

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                      • #26
                        We have our differences but we seem to iron them out better, in reality the US cannot force or pressure its allies into doing anything, for one thing its the fastest way to lose allies, most times we dont need to be asked we step forward and do what we can but if we say no (vietnam), no means no, and all the grey areas inbetween.
                        We all want the same things, stability and our hard won freedoms and it stands to reason a collective effort protects things better.
                        And the world would be chaos without the relationships.
                        Sealion would have failed..............runs,

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                        • #27
                          well, Japan lost - stupidly, i.e. it should never have hoped for victory - big time. huge losses, massive destruction, all fleet sunk, nuked and burned out cities.

                          but Japan won the peace, like Germany, Italy, etc. - and unlike the UK. and this is the tribute to sound and good policies from the USA for that - even if their intention was not necessarily the good of the japanese, but to create an environment not fertile for communism, but still, something to be hugely gratefull to the US empire for!
                          "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by daemonofdecay View Post
                            The US gained the most from WW2 hands down, while those who were defeated just didn't loose so badly as they could have.
                            Perhaps a very picky point here, but I think a little too much is made of US "gains" out of WWII. Reason being that it is frequently forgotten that the US possessed something on the order of 30 to 40 percent of the world's industrial capacity before entering the war. The workshops for radios, tanks, trains, Liberty ships, raw steel, cement, etc.. did not spring up over night. Many of them already existed in civilized form (and the industrial capacity existed to build more of these plants). Thus the well known comment by Churchill, "we have just won the war" when told of the attack on Pearl Harbor. Yes, the US got back to full (in the extreme; bringing new workers into the work place) employment, but the Great Depression was already fading. Any apparent "gains" by the US were more a case of European industry being pulverized. In reality, the entire world, US and elsewhere, would have all been better off if the war had not been necessary and Detroit had continued to turn out cars rather than Liberators.
                            "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!"

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                            • #29
                              Looks overall fine to me. Losses in population were substantial due to military losses and bombing. Territorial gains were all reverted to zero (something that's not true for the winners who kept major forward bases in territory they made their own).

                              The Germans needed a "real" occupation after WW1's loss didn't feel like a loss to them, but that was without major bombing, much less nukes.

                              History has shown that the Japanese straightened up and don't show aggression against anybody and they are a true ally of the U.S.

                              The biggest downside is that they never felt the need to apologize like the Germans did but in the greater scheme of things this is fairly minor.

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