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Did Japan in reality WIN in World War II

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  • Did Japan in reality WIN in World War II

    I mean think about it. They got to keep their emperor. Their homeland was never actually properly invaded by the enemy. Few of their military leaders faced warcrime trials after the war (nothing like Nuremburg). The USA bankrolled the creation of an Asian economic and industrial giant, and Japan has never properly payed much (if any) reparations to the countries it made war on. As near as I can tell, all they lost were a few small islands in the north to the Soviets. By special treaty, we also guaranteed throughout the Cold War era the Soviets would NEVER go any farther. Ironically backed up by a U.S. nuclear deterrent.

    It really is hard to figure out a downside to Japans entry into the War (unless at the time you resided in Hiroshima or Nagasaki in 1945). As well as any of the other Japanese cities we mercilessly fire bombed into ashes. The civilian population of Japan did pay a horrible price for the war.. Much more so than Japan's government or its' military.

    The point is, RL history is controversial enough without having to go Harry Turtledove on everybody,(by the way, a great writer). I wish our public schools in the USA offered some "alternative" view history classes, instead of the canned dumbed down curriculum we have. Which would possibly go a long ways toward creating a generation of thinkers and innovators, instead of parrots who can only memorize historical events and dates using clever rhymes.

  • #2
    In terms of stabilty and prosperity, Japan emerged as a great winner of the war. However, in human costs, it was exceptionally high. Japan, if it had not gone to war, would have possibly remained in control of areas of china and korea.

    Germany can also be seen as a "winner" too, sinces its now an economic success (politcally however, its rather less successful)

    Good to see an alternate view.

    Its also true that pretty much every nation thats had US troops stationed there has been a success economicly, hell, if i owned a country, i would allow US troops to have a base there (mainly so i could flog stuff to them for massive profit)
    Who we are is but a stepping stone to what we may become.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Greasel_burger View Post

      Its also true that pretty much every nation thats had US troops stationed there has been a success economicly, hell, if i owned a country, i would allow US troops to have a base there (mainly so i could flog stuff to them for massive profit)
      The mouse that roared.
      Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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      • #4
        Originally posted by waldron View Post
        The point is, RL history is controversial enough without having to go Harry Turtledove on everybody,(by the way, a great writer) .
        If you like boring plots, over characterization, and no creativity maybe.
        Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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        • #5
          Yes in a way Germany and Japan gained a great deal form the war. Germany in particular was liberated from a murderous regime both had a very successful constitution created for them, massive investment and then the economic juggernaut they both produced.

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          • #6
            So you think every country should be flatten to the ground and start over, losing a couple of million people at the same time. Strange way to progress.
            "Ask not what your country can do for you"

            Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

            you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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            • #7
              Er no I dont think that's a particularly practical way of going about it and Im suprised you read into it that way mate but as far as history goes that was the consequence of that terrible war for those two countries, democratically and economically.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                Er no I dont think that's a particularly practical way of going about it and Im suprised you read into it that way mate but as far as history goes that was the consequence of that terrible war for those two countries, democratically and economically.
                Just poking some fun your way S.
                "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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                • #9
                  Germany can also be seen as a "winner" too, sinces its now an economic success (politcally however, its rather less successful)
                  It what way is it less successful than other EU governments including Britains?
                  "Ask not what your country can do for you"

                  Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

                  you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by tsar View Post
                    If you like boring plots, over characterization, and no creativity maybe.
                    Well, that is one opinion. Personally, I like him. Nice guy too if you have ever met him. He & Mike Stackpole are pretty interesting fellas to run into at a con.
                    The muffled drums sad roll has beat the soldier's last tatoo. No more on life's parade shall meet that brave and fallen few.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
                      So you think every country should be flatten to the ground and start over, losing a couple of million people at the same time. Strange way to progress.
                      Not really that unique an idea. Two of the most influential ideological movements of the 20th Century embraced the "scorched earth" method of system change. Ever read Karl Marx or Mien Kampf for instance ?

                      Clearly these ideologies placed no value whatsoever on the survival of any one particular individual, or numbers of people where the spread of ideology through warfare and national expansion is concerned. Under this premise (Yes) to a great extent, a certain amount of the population of a nation is expendable. In fact, the expenditure of the citizenry in WAR to further a nations goals is not merely a moral choice under THESE ideologies.. it's MANDATORY REALITY.

                      Not just Lenin and Hitler embraced these ideas either. They were embraced by hundreds of millions. Why ? Because it was popular revolutionary thinking at the time. Nobody recognized it as some kind of strange mental pathology.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
                        Just poking some fun your way S.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by waldron View Post
                          I mean think about it.
                          No.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by waldron View Post
                            I mean think about it. They got to keep their emperor. Their homeland was never actually properly invaded by the enemy. Few of their military leaders faced warcrime trials after the war (nothing like Nuremburg). The USA bankrolled the creation of an Asian economic and industrial giant, and Japan has never properly payed much (if any) reparations to the countries it made war on. As near as I can tell, all they lost were a few small islands in the north to the Soviets. By special treaty, we also guaranteed throughout the Cold War era the Soviets would NEVER go any farther. Ironically backed up by a U.S. nuclear deterrent.

                            It really is hard to figure out a downside to Japans entry into the War (unless at the time you resided in Hiroshima or Nagasaki in 1945). As well as any of the other Japanese cities we mercilessly fire bombed into ashes. The civilian population of Japan did pay a horrible price for the war.. Much more so than Japan's government or its' military.

                            The point is, RL history is controversial enough without having to go Harry Turtledove on everybody,(by the way, a great writer). I wish our public schools in the USA offered some "alternative" view history classes, instead of the canned dumbed down curriculum we have. Which would possibly go a long ways toward creating a generation of thinkers and innovators, instead of parrots who can only memorize historical events and dates using clever rhymes.
                            Between 1946–51, some 5,600 Japanese personnel were prosecuted in more than 2,200 trials outside Japan. The judges presiding came from the United States, China, the United Kingdom, Australia, the Netherlands, France, the Soviet Union, New Zealand, India and the Philippines. Additionally, the Chinese Communists also held a number of trials for Japanese personnel. More than 4,400 Japanese personnel were convicted and about 1,000 were sentenced to death. The largest single trial was that of 93 Japanese personnel charged with the summary execution of more than 300 Allied POWs, in the Laha massacre
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

                            These "Class A" were executed

                            General Kenji Doihara, spy (later Air Force commander)
                            Baron Kōki Hirota, foreign minister
                            General Seishirō Itagaki, war minister
                            General Heitarō Kimura, commander, Burma Expeditionary Force
                            General Iwane Matsui, commander, Shanghai Expeditionary Force and Central China Area Army
                            General Akira Muto, commander, Philippines Expeditionary Force
                            General Hideki Tōjō, commander, Kwantung Army (later prime minister)

                            These "Class A" sentence to life in prison

                            General Sadao Araki, war minister
                            Colonel Kingorō Hashimoto, major instigator of the second Sino-Japanese War
                            Field Marshal Shunroku Hata, war minister
                            Baron Kiichirō Hiranuma, prime minister
                            Naoki Hoshino, Chief Cabinet Secretary
                            Okinori Kaya, opium dealer to the Chinese
                            Marquis Kōichi Kido, Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal
                            General Kuniaki Koiso, governor of Korea, later prime minister
                            General Jirō Minami, commander, Kwantung Army
                            Admiral Takasumi Oka, naval minister
                            General Hiroshi Ōshima, ambassador to Germany
                            General Kenryō Satō, chief of the Military Affairs Bureau
                            Admiral Shigetarō Shimada, naval minister
                            Toshio Shiratori, ambassador to Italy
                            General Teiichi Suzuki, president of the Cabinet Planning Board
                            General Yoshijirō Umezu, war minister

                            All Japanese asset overseas where siezed
                            ¥379,499,000,000

                            In addition Japan paid
                            ¥364,348,800,000
                            US$1,012,080,000
                            To Indonesia, Phillipines, Burma and Vietnam fpr the occupation.



                            I do agree the royal family got away scot free
                            FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

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                            • #15
                              While certainly not painless, and not a way I would recommend growing an economy, Japan came out of this pretty well for a crushed country. In fact, an arguement could be made that losing Manchuria, eastern China, and Korea actually was a benefit. It ended an endless war and forced Japan to focus on its real strength (development of its own people) rather than the enslavement of others for natural resources.
                              "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!"

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