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  • #16
    I thought the Americans didn't want a significant British role in the Pacific anyway?
    "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Surrey View Post
      I thought the Americans didn't want a significant British role in the Pacific anyway?
      Depends on who you ask. Admiral King disliked the British and that attitude precolated on down a couple levels in the USN. MacAurthur had some sort of issue with the Brits or the Australians. After the crisis of 1942 was over he tended to ignore or occasionally misuse the Australians available to him. Stillwell has a reputation for hating the British, which is illdeserved. Stilwells problem was with several specific British leaders he had to work with. Others like Slim he got along with quite well.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
        Depends on who you ask. Admiral King disliked the British and that attitude precolated on down a couple levels in the USN. MacAurthur had some sort of issue with the Brits or the Australians. After the crisis of 1942 was over he tended to ignore or occasionally misuse the Australians available to him. Stillwell has a reputation for hating the British, which is ill deserved. Stilwells problem was with several specific British leaders he had to work with. Others like Slim he got along with quite well.
        You didn't have to be British for King, MacArthur or Stillwell to hate you...you just had to disagree with them

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        • #19
          Originally posted by redcoat View Post
          You didn't have to be British for King, MacArthur or Stillwell to hate you...you just had to disagree with them
          What? Senior military commanders with huge egos resenting dissent?

          Truly that must be an exclusively American trait.
          "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
          George Mason
          Co-author of the Second Amendment
          during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

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          • #20
            The best the RN could have done was to provide an A/C without an airwing.
            FAA planes were woeful and unless the USN could provide the planes then I see RN A/C's being of little fighting value and a large pain in the logistical ass

            Regards
            "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

            "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
              Well Mojo is partially correct. The IJN battleships were not concentrated in a single squadron. Yamoto had his best four or five with him and the others with the landing forces, or the logisitcs train. I'm too presssed for time to walk across the room to look this up. On the third day of the battle Yamamoto also had a fifth carrier with the amphib fleet and two more with the Alteutians diversionary operation. The latter were less than fourtyeight hours away, and Yamamoto did order them south to join his fleet late on the second day.

              As far as night battles go the Royal Navy proved to have a lot of skill at this Exactly how it compared to the IJN I cant say. In the latter half of 1942 in the Solomons campaign the USN was abloe to catch up with the IJN in night fighting skill. I suspect the IJN would have had a nasty suprise were it to run into a RN battle line at night in 1942.

              Sending three or four Brit battleships, crusiers, and escourts around the globe on a few weeks notice, for imeadiate battle, sounds fraught with logistics problems. A engineering casualty that would ordinarily not be a problem in a Brit shipyard could very well not be quickly repaired in Oahu.

              Then there are serious comunications and command problems lacking any workup. In the Atlantic it took weeks for a USN or RN destroyer to operate effectively with the other navy on convoy escourt. In Febuary and March 42 the ABDA combined fleet based in Indonesia was nearly ineffective in battle due to communications problems. Even with liasion officers posted on each ship and extra radios on some command and control failed at critical moments.
              As to an engeering casuality while trying re-enforcing the Pacific that happen to RN with the direct result of the lose of the POW and the Repulse.
              FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

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              • #22
                Originally posted by mojolocobell99 View Post
                When our inteligence service discovered Japans plan to invade Midway the United States made a formal request to Britain to provide warships to support our small pacific fleet. Even though most of the German and Italian navies had been either destroyed or severely damaged, the Brithish refuse to send ships to our aid. If elements of the Home Fleet had been dispatched, most importantly its battleships, the combined Fleet we could have sent to Midway should have been enough to cripple the entire Japanese Fleet and shorten the war by at least a year.

                I would really like to see your source for this "fact"

                Considering that Rochefort and company did not finally connect enough dots to convince Nimitz, note: Nimitz, not the wonks in Washington, that Midway was indeed the target until about 15 May 42, exactly who, and where, was someone asking for RN units to participate in an action about two-three weeks away. Just what RN units could make that dash?

                Point me to a real document, signed by someone with the authority to make such a request . . . hot flash, you cannot.

                I am afraid you have been the victim another of those nonsense internet myths . . . kind of like your assertion elsewhere that Fletcher was responsible for the loss of Wasp and Hornet. Nope, sorry, wrong answer.

                There was no request for RN carriers to participate in the BoM. Suggest you read up on the subject a bit more, not on the internet. See if you can find out where King and his staff thought the Japanese were going to strike, a belief they held right up until the Japanese were sighted on on afternoon of 3 June west of Midway and the secondary attacks stared at Dutch Harbor.

                Oh, and re: a mention of HMS Victorious operating in the Solomons in July 1943. She was not renamed or even codenamed USS Robin, "Robin" was her radio call sign. "USS Robin", referring to HMS Victorious, was a theater joke. Further, like most navies, the USN is loath to have two ships of the same name; it really screws up the mail. USS Robin (AT-140) was a minesweeper converted to an ocean tug operating in the same theater, out of Tutuila.

                If I seem to giving short shrift, it is due to a low tolerance level for the repeating of nonsense without checking the story.

                Rich
                Last edited by RLeonard; 19 Jul 08, 21:26.
                hmmm . . . I wonder what THIS button does . . . uh oh

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                • #23
                  I'd think if the RN were to be used a good option might be to raid the oil refinerys and sea route from Indonesia. This could help decive Japan as to the USNs intent, draw down some of the strength of the IJNs Midway operation, and start early the attritional naval campaign that ran from August thru November in the SE Pacific (Solomons). Perhaps if the RN/USN worked together more for three to four months enough of the coordination problems would be solved to begain concentrating the two navys. Having a British capitol ship squadron & escourts/support gives the USN more options in the later Solomons campaign.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Metryll View Post
                    Brits actually send ships in December 1941, Repulse and Prince of Wales and both were lost to Japanese aviation. It is unlikely that RN would have sent BBs without proper air cover. And by this time CVs were badly needed in North Atlantic and Med.
                    My grandfather was on board HMS Repulse at the time. He spent the 1942-45 period as a POW as a result.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Andy H View Post
                      The best the RN could have done was to provide an A/C without an airwing.
                      FAA planes were woeful and unless the USN could provide the planes then I see RN A/C's being of little fighting value and a large pain in the logistical ass

                      Regards
                      Would those woeful planes include the Spitfire (aka Seafire), Hurricane (aka Hurricat), Swordfish and Wildcat (aka Martlet)?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by theshoveller View Post
                        My grandfather was on board HMS Repulse at the time. He spent the 1942-45 period as a POW as a result.
                        Do you know where he ended being held?
                        FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

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                        • #27
                          The FAA's aircraft, June '42...

                          Originally posted by theshoveller View Post
                          Would those woeful planes include the Spitfire (aka Seafire),<snip>
                          Nope, not in June '42...you've got to admit it's initial embarked operational record (i.e. Husky) showed just how woeful these first conversions were...no folding wings either, they had to be stored on the deck...

                          The first major operation involving Seafires was Operation Torch in North Africa followed by Operation Husky in Sicily. Operation Husky showed just how fragile the Seafire was. Of the 106 initially deployed less than 50 survived the first 48 hours due to landing accidents and only 23 were serviceable when the operation concluded.
                          http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Seafire.htm
                          Originally posted by theshoveller View Post
                          >Hurricane (aka Hurricat),<snip>
                          Yep, in fleet service during the period in question. Biggest drawback?...pretty short legs for offensive operations in the Pacific. It's performance during "Pedestal" in Aug '42 suggests that it may have been a formidable opponent in the fleet defense role, if the RN had participated in the action at Midway...N.B. the "Hurricat" was a conversion for catapult launch from merchant vessels, developed to combat the Fw200's operating in the western approaches of the North Atlantic run, Luftwaffe assets in Norway (on the Murmansk/Archangel run) and the German/Italians operating in the Med...the carrier based a/c was the "Sea Hurricane".
                          http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Ai...ahurricane.htm
                          Originally posted by theshoveller View Post
                          > Swordfish <snip>
                          Had been withdrawn from the torpedo role by the time of Midway; don't much like their chances in the face of determined fighter opposition.
                          On 5 April 1942 the Japanese succeeded in destroying their first Swordfish. Six swordfish from 788 squadron based in China Bay from February 1942 were shot down by Japanese Mitsubishi A6M Zeros from Hiryu while in line astern passing along balloon corridor North of Colombo. V4371 was shot down and crashed in sea and the crew killed, V4397 ditched near beach and the crew survived, V45398 force landed in the jungle but its torpedo exploded, V4412 force landed on the beach and overturned in the water wounding or killing its crew, V4413 overturned in a paddy field and wounding its crew and V4423 force landed on the beach but was then straffed by A6M seriously wounding or killing it crew.
                          The Swordfish was never again used as a torpedo bomber.
                          http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Ai.../Swordfish.htm
                          Originally posted by theshoveller View Post
                          >and Wildcat (aka Martlet).
                          While the "Martlet" was in FAA service at the time, the available machines were all early production examples, many diverted from French (112a/c) and Greek (30a/c) orders when these countries were overrun, the remainder (~100 a/c) were also early models (G-36a & b's). The first "Martlet IV's" (i.e. F-4b's, 220 ordered under Cont. No. LL83734) did not start to arrive in England until Sept. '42. If the FAA did go into combat with the IJN at Midway, the early model Martlet I's would be the FAA's "penetration" fighter...IMO, the "learning curve" against the A6M2 might still be somewhat "steep" at this point in time for the FAA aircrew...

                          Food for thought...

                          Cheers, Ron
                          48 trips 'round the sun on this sh*tball we call home...and still learning...
                          __________________________________________________ __________________

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                          • #28
                            Thanks Irom for giving the answers to query raised

                            Regards
                            "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Churchill

                            "I'm no reactionary.Christ on the Mountain! I'm as idealistic as Hell" Eisenhower

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