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Nazi Germany vs. Imperial Japan

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  • Nazi Germany vs. Imperial Japan

    Let's just assume that all of Western Europe has fallen to the Nazis. Great Britain fell during Operation Sea Lion. Portugal was invaded and conqured by a Fascist Spain backed by Nazi Germany. The Balkans fell to the Nazis as well. North Africa, the Middle East up to Iraq , every country but Switzerland and Sweeden is under Hitler's control, including all of European Russia.

    In Asia, China, all of Southeast Asia, The Dutch East Indies, Australia, India, Persia (Iran), Mongolia, and Siberia have fallen to Imperial Japan.

    North America has turned into a military camp, with heavily defended shorelines and pooled resources (Let's just assume that the U.S.A, Canada, and Mexico came together under the threat of war. I'm not saying they formed one country of course.)

    South America is begining to go in the same direction as North America.

    Neither Nazi Germany nor Imperial Japan can establish a beachhead in North America from so far away, and to drive inland would be a logistical nightmare.

    My question, what would happen from here? It's obvious that Germany and Japan's alliance would be strained at best. Worse, the world might enter a Cold War, but instead of the U.S.A and U.S.S.R competing for power, it would be Germany and Japan. Worse still, there will be a World War 3, or what I will call it, a Euro-Asian War.

    So, it's really two questions:

    1) If the world entered a Cold War, would would the end result be? Would Germany or Japan come out as the victor?

    2) If the two superpowers went to war, what would happen? Who would win, who has what advantages, disadvantages, etc.

  • #2
    If Germany has the active co-operation of the citizens and countries in Europe it can easily out produce Japan. In the 1940, other than Japan and parts of Korea there was little industrial output in Asia. Europe has a large educated industrial society. Asia at that time did not.

    Not sure how much Australia and New Zealand would change that.
    FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

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    • #3
      Looking over your list of countries, Russia seems to be left out and you mention Western Europe, but not Eastern Europe. You do mention Japan has Siberia. So my question then becomes, do you have in mind Germany controlling all of Europe and Russia to the western side of the Urals, with Japan controlling to the eastern side of the Urals? Or is Russia some kind of buffer state?

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      • #4
        Yes he did say that (urals dividing line)
        FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

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        • #5
          Hmmm......

          Out of vanity, in 1947 Hitler sends his navy half way around the world to do battle with the Imperial Japanese Fleet. The Japs easily win this clash of the titans via carrier air power, and the rag-tag German refuse slinks home to lick its wounds, blaming Mussolini and the Italians for the loss.

          In a rage Hitler orders the execution of his entire Naval staff, but by this time German scientist, not working for NASA because of America's indifference, complete their heavy water experiments and build the atomic bomb. In 1949 the Germans test detonate this weapon over downtown Warsaw (at night, of course, to fool the Polish), and usher in the Nuclear Age.

          Dolf, estatic over his new toy, orders them mass produced and, in 1951, uses them to obliterate the Japanese mainland. The response of the Emperor is "No Saki for you!", followed shortly by "We Surrender!"

          In response the Americans, hunkered down in their basements clinging to their guns and religion (which they have because Nancy Pelosi and B. Hussein Obama either haven't been born or haven't grown up yet), decide to tunnel underground to escape Armageddon. Here they meet Doug and Bob, two metropolitian police officers with a difference, and Gimli, a dwarf with a huge battleaxe, who convince them that the correct course of action is to build a giant super-weapon capable of destroying all life on earth with a single blast. The American Congress goes into closed session to discuss the matter, and 45 years later, in 1996, agrees to fund the project.

          In 1997 President For Life Oprah vetos the bill.

          By this time the Nazi's have succombed to xenophobic paranoia, and destroyed themselves.

          France emerges as the premeir power in the world, ushering in an age where nothing productive gets done and no-one bathes regularly.

          In 2009, answering the call of Robotron Al-Gore 209, Aliens land in Slippery-Rock Tennessee, converting all humans in the world to pod-people. All humans that is, except one.

          The one chosen to forever represent the memory of humanity is a guy named Slug, who for all time is kept in a cage and fed only Taco Bell. All day long he shouts out "Don't look at me!"

          The End.
          Last edited by Martok; 06 Jul 08, 15:44.

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          • #6
            I think Hitler would have a pretty tough time not trying to fight the Japanese, who he considered subhuman. If they did fight it would hard for fast moving panzer forces to get into the heart of Asia since there are a lot of mountains their and then having a big enough air force to bomb Japan or invade. If they get that far their would be alot of casualties if the Germans were denied their armor in Asia and then would have to adopt cave fighting like the US in WWII to get through Asia, if Hitler was determined to defeat Japan.
            "All Glory is Fleeting"

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            • #7
              I dont know why everyone seems to think that the Japanese Navy would have had it's own way. Germany had more Submarines than Japan has ships.

              Besides, a much smaller American fleet of Subs mangled the Japanese merchant AND surface fleet.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                I dont know why everyone seems to think that the Japanese Navy would have had it's own way. Germany had more Submarines than Japan has ships.

                Besides, a much smaller American fleet of Subs mangled the Japanese merchant AND surface fleet.
                Another good point
                FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                  I dont know why everyone seems to think that the Japanese Navy would have had it's own way. Germany had more Submarines than Japan has ships.

                  Besides, a much smaller American fleet of Subs mangled the Japanese merchant AND surface fleet.
                  Great point. The reasons being the Japanese were severly lacking in submarine detection equipment and the refusal to adopt the convoy system.

                  Where are the Italians in this scenario?
                  Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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                  • #10
                    Where are the Italians in this scenario?

                    Most likely securing the Persian Gulf, and maybe making a dash for Madagascar.
                    Aden and the island of Socotra would make great bases for protecting the Suez Canal.

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                    • #11
                      Germany would have won, not on manpower, but on atomic

                      The race between America and Germany for the Atomic bomb dictated who won the war. Even if America got the bomb first, with all forward bases across both oceans in Axis hands, we never could have used it. Germany was the dominate partner in the Axis, and held both scientific and espionage advantage, so be it an atomic bombing of Japan, or a dirty bomb terrorist strike, Japan would have yielded to Germany the same way they did the U.S.
                      "America has gone to hell since John Wayne died". - Al Bundy

                      "One finger is all any real American needs"

                      "A gesture is worth a thousand words - but you usually only need two"

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mojolocobell99 View Post
                        The race between America and Germany for the Atomic bomb dictated who won the war. Even if America got the bomb first, with all forward bases across both oceans in Axis hands, we never could have used it. Germany was the dominate partner in the Axis, and held both scientific and espionage advantage, so be it an atomic bombing of Japan, or a dirty bomb terrorist strike, Japan would have yielded to Germany the same way they did the U.S.
                        The Japanese also had an atomic bomb program, while not as far a long as as the German let alone the US program in this scenario there is no reason to believe the Japanese program would be slower then the German program. The German atomic program did not realize they were in a race and never committed large resources to the program it is possible if they feeling supreme in conventional forces would have continue to not commit the resources as they were slow to try and develop other technologies before they were forced by defeats. In Japan case I feel it was the opposite. Japan had an innovative technology base but as soon as they started suffering defeat they shut down many of their development programs. If Japan however remained victorious they might not have shut down those programs.


                        It is also clear the Japanese would not have any problems getting one way suicide delivery team assembled.
                        FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Xilonest View Post
                          Let's just assume that all of Western Europe has fallen to the Nazis. Great Britain fell during Operation Sea Lion. Portugal was invaded and conqured by a Fascist Spain backed by Nazi Germany. The Balkans fell to the Nazis as well. North Africa, the Middle East up to Iraq , every country but Switzerland and Sweeden is under Hitler's control, including all of European Russia.

                          In Asia, China, all of Southeast Asia, The Dutch East Indies, Australia, India, Persia (Iran), Mongolia, and Siberia have fallen to Imperial Japan.

                          North America has turned into a military camp, with heavily defended shorelines and pooled resources (Let's just assume that the U.S.A, Canada, and Mexico came together under the threat of war. I'm not saying they formed one country of course.)

                          South America is begining to go in the same direction as North America.

                          Neither Nazi Germany nor Imperial Japan can establish a beachhead in North America from so far away, and to drive inland would be a logistical nightmare.

                          My question, what would happen from here? It's obvious that Germany and Japan's alliance would be strained at best. Worse, the world might enter a Cold War, but instead of the U.S.A and U.S.S.R competing for power, it would be Germany and Japan. Worse still, there will be a World War 3, or what I will call it, a Euro-Asian War.

                          So, it's really two questions:

                          1) If the world entered a Cold War, would would the end result be? Would Germany or Japan come out as the victor?

                          2) If the two superpowers went to war, what would happen? Who would win, who has what advantages, disadvantages, etc.
                          Sorry for the bump, but I'd like to make my contribution.

                          by 1941 (Or was it 1939?) Germany was the second most industrialized nation on earth, making 14.4% of the world's war material, Japan came in at a measely 3 point something percent. Now assuming that both Nations achieved their goals in WW2 this gap would only grow larger as Germany commandeers the industries of France, Russia, Britain, and puts Italy's industry to work. Now France and Italy had a similar industrial capacity to Japan, while Britain made about 9-10% of the World's weapons, and Russia just barely lagging behind Germany.

                          Japan would gain very little initially from it's conquests, industrially speaking any way. Sure after some time it will build up the industries of it's conquered lands, but so will Germany, and with all of Europe being either conquered, vassalized, or on friendly terms with the Nazis, they won't be catching up, ever.

                          Even though Japan's navy would start out bigger, Germany's vastly superior industrial capacity would allow them to catch up pretty quickly, and their superior technology will make the ships they build better than those of the Japanese. Essentially, it would go a lot like the Pacific war, only that Japan has a slightly better chance of winning, and the Germans would be a lot less kind to their foes than the Americans were.

                          I can see Japan losing it's possessions in China and Korea very quickly, though they won't lose them quite as quickly as they did during Operation August storm. Once China falls, the Germans will quickly move to take Japan's holdings in mainland southeastern asia out of the equation, then move to "liberate" conquered India from Japan, relentlessly blasting the IJA and IJAAF into their component atoms, while Germany's friend, Qajarian Persia moves in to attack from the east, providing a nice distraction.

                          Once Japan is kicked out of the continent, it's holdings in Oceania will be the next on the Menu, but this would be the hard part, for one, Indonesia is by far the largest island chain on earth, it easily dwarfs every other archipelago on earth put together. So the Island hopping campaign would be hell, luckily, most of Indonesia's important islands are more than large enough for the favorite tactics of germany, unluckily the terrain typically isn't.

                          While the Wehrmarcht and Luftwaffe deal with the IJA and IJAF in Oceania, the Kriegsmarine will almost certainly use unrestricted submarine warfare to choke Japan out of it's resources, as Japan is crippilingly over dependent on Maritime trade. And once the Kriegsmarine is built up to Hitler's liking (which it would almost certainly be by the time the war starts) the surface fleet will begin it's attacks on the IJN, and unlike Japan, the Third Reich's industrial capacity will allow it to be able to absorb losses quite well (sure a defeat of the battle of midway's magnitude would hurt Germany, but they'd be able to replace their losses, while Japan would need years to do the same, by which time the Kriegsmarine would have exceeded the IJN in size in almost every regard.)

                          Once Indonesia falls, Australia will be next, and unfortunately for the Japanese, Australia's wide open spaces make for good tank country, which means that the Wehrmarcht and Waffen SS's panthers and tigers will eat the IJA forces there for breakfast. New Zealand and Tasmania would probably fall to Germany shortly thereafter.

                          After many more island hopping campaigns all across the Pacific, the third reich will make it's move on the Japanese home Islands, and at that point Germany can either nuke them or conquer them the old fashioned way, either way Japan can't win.
                          Standing here, I realize you were just like me trying to make history.
                          But who's to judge the right from wrong.
                          When our guard is down I think we'll both agree.
                          That violence breeds violence.
                          But in the end it has to be this way.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                            Where are the Italians in this scenario?

                            Most likely securing the Persian Gulf, and maybe making a dash for Madagascar.
                            Aden and the island of Socotra would make great bases for protecting the Suez Canal.
                            Italy was roughly Japan's equal in Industrial and Economic terms back then (it was a little bit behind, but not by much), I don't see why that would change. And unfortunately for Japan, Italy was much more likely to side with Germany if the Axis alliance went sour, seeing as how Germany is so much closer to Italy both Geographically and Politically.

                            Japan can't really do any reprisals against Italy if it sided with Germany, but boy could the Third Reich do a reprisal against Italy if it made the mistake of siding with Japan.
                            Standing here, I realize you were just like me trying to make history.
                            But who's to judge the right from wrong.
                            When our guard is down I think we'll both agree.
                            That violence breeds violence.
                            But in the end it has to be this way.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Czin, where did the 14.4% number come from. I'd heard similar things, and it would help my debating Immensely if you can give me a credible source on Industrial capacity per nation.
                              How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
                              275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

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