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  • What Patton wanted....

    My father and I and a few of his friends tried to re-create this scenario...
    Patton didn't die and his higher ups (Ike and Truman mainly) agreed to his plan to re-arm Germany and take the Russians out. We played this scenario in the "Take Cover" rules system (a tabletop wargame) having the Americans/Germans/British attacking a Russian held village in Germany. Tough stuff those Russians considering their numbers and the JS-III's. But, is there any way we can get a campaign built around this in any computer game? I think the operational art of war can handle this... But I dont own that game...
    The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed. -Carl Jung

    Hell is other people. -Jean-Paul Sarte

  • #2
    Sounds pretty interesting. How well did the western allies do agianst those ruskies? What year did the scenario occur in?

    I have not heard of this plan of Patton's, but I am doubtful even if he survived it would have happened. After going through a bloody war to liberate Europe, I dont think the British or the American public would have approved of sending the boys out agianst old uncle stalin.

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    • #3
      Patton had a good idea going there, but why would American soldiers (recently in world war 2) want to fight along side the Germans? Patton would have a hard time convincing them to do so.

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      • #4
        What Patton wanted....

        Originally posted by jivetalk0810
        Patton had a good idea going there, but why would American soldiers (recently in world war 2) want to fight along side the Germans? Patton would have a hard time convincing them to do so.
        Not necessarily. Many American;s did not like the idea of fought on the same side as the Soviets, but we managed that. Getting our troops to fight with the Geramns may well have been no more than indicating that a) the Germans are no longer fighting under Nazi control; and b) the Soviets are the prime adversary, wanting to take over all of Europe, and later the world at large. Given this, most American soldiers will accede to fighting WITH the Germans AGAINST the Russian. In fact, the armed forces may even be indoctrinated to the evils of Communism.
        Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
        (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)

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        • #5
          I rather doubt it. The Russians had been portrayed as our ALLIES, gallantly fighting the Nazi menace (yes, I know...it was all crap, but nonetheless, that is what the propaganda was all about, and this had been quite consistent for almost 4 years by the end of the war), while the Germans were cast as the agents of evil. Whatever one might think about the truth of this, the notion that we would simply turn on a dime and link arms with the Germans vs the Russians is simply not on. The 'evils of communism' (now obvious to us in hindsight) weren't as clear to an American govt which included many members of the Communist Party, and a slew of sympathizers. Particularly after the 1930s (where what was perceived as the failure of capitalism provided rich recruiting grounds for communists), there were many Americans who had at least flirted with communism in the immediate past.

          The only alternative way to 'sell' this war (a good idea, mind you, just not practical...) would be to demonize Stalin, even less likely as he had been portrayed as 'Uncle Joe', the leader of the resistance to Hitler throughout the war. The Brits (who were about to dump Churchill for an avowed Socialist) probably wouldn't have gone along with things either, and the French certainly wouldn't have taken our side if it inovlved cozing up to the Germans, much less stabbing the Russians.

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          • #6
            by the end of the war the red army was colosal in size. could we have beaten them? im not so sure,and if we lost?
            i yam what i yam and thats what i yam!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by terry patterson
              by the end of the war the red army was colosal in size. could we have beaten them? im not so sure,and if we lost?

              I'm not sure, but did the Soviets have enough weapons to arm all their troops? At Stalingrad, soldiers were told to follow the one guy with the gun, and when he died, pick it up and fight. That was mostly the inability to resupply, but were their any guns to resupply with?

              What I'm getting at is that all of out infantry would be fully armed. Their infantry, on the other hand, would be lucky to have more than three rifles in their unit. Their attacks would be "human wave" tactics, right? They would have the advantage of being the home team and in manpower, but we would have the advantage in skilled troops. (Though they had many skilled troops by the end of the war, too.)

              Another advantage of ours would be that we would be the only ones with nukes (for a few years, anyway). We might have actually used them against the Soviets.
              "You realize that if I could actually purchase a weapon, I would stab you with it now?" --Roy, Order of the Stick #136

              Governor of South Florida, Cuba, Louisiana, Manhattan, Hawaii, Illinois, Moon and Mars. Chief of Cybernetics Div., S.INC

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              • #8
                After fighting a major 4 year-long world war against the world's two most advanced, belligerent nations, I doubt US soldiers would be up to the task in fighting an immediate war thereafter with the Soviets. As it was, troops were looking forward to go home. Remember how the Allied High Command wanted to end the war by Christmas? People were tired of it.

                The Soviets were our allies throughout the war. They were the ones that carried most of the burden for 4 years. American propaganda couldn't possibly change overnight from "PRAISE OUR SOVIET ALLIES!" to "THE RED MENACE IS THE DEVIL!" The United States would require one heck of a good reason to go to war with the Soviets.

                My point is that without good reason, a war with the Soviets would end up in defeat due to poor morale and the desire for peace.
                "The U.S. has broken the second rule of war. That is don't go fighting with your land army on the mainland of Asia. Rule One is don't march on Moscow. I developed these two rules myself." - Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery referring to the Vietnam War

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                • #9
                  Actually, by the end of WWII, the Soviets were running out of manpower (so were we, for that matter...we were already shaking out many of our AA units, for instance, to get infantry), and were rather lavishly equipped. The big issue for the Reds would have been the extreme mobility of American forces, and of course the impact of our airpower.

                  As for American morale and its desire for peace, this would have militated against an american decision to move against the Reds following the defeat of the Germans. Once that decision was made (it wouldn't have been, but lets pretend for a moment...) I rather doubt that the troops in the field would have had much trouble with it. American forces were famous for a hard-bitten cynicism...

                  Of course, it wouldn't have happened anyway...

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                  • #10
                    Patton was a lunatic, the Red Army would have steam-rolled the western Allies to the Atlantic.

                    Would be an intersting "What-If" wargame scenario though, might have to try it in Hearts of Iron.
                    "War is the extension of politics by other means." - "On War" Carl Von Clauswitz

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                    • #11
                      Sorry I thought this was gonna be a dead end.

                      Spring of '45, well we had 3 roads and each force (Germans, British, Americans) would roll up and take this small town Held by 3 Tank Brigades of Soviets. We allowed some things. JS-II's and III's replacing majority of the T-34's but maintaining a lot of those and the Germans were allowed the Panther II and Panther F. Well the Americans hit a road block in the form of some well dug in bunkers, the British were embroiled in a heavy tank battle (Fireflys, Churchills and Cromwells vs T-34/85's) and the Germans were sneaking their way in. (I was firing smoke ahead of my tanks and men and kept creeping forward I had mostly Panzergrenadiers hitching rides on Stugs. I had 3 Tiger I, 2 Panther F's and 2 Panther II's... We never finished though we would have won with heavy casualties.
                      The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed. -Carl Jung

                      Hell is other people. -Jean-Paul Sarte

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bariman
                        I'm not sure, but did the Soviets have enough weapons to arm all their troops? At Stalingrad, soldiers were told to follow the one guy with the gun, and when he died, pick it up and fight. That was mostly the inability to resupply, but were their any guns to resupply with?

                        What I'm getting at is that all of out infantry would be fully armed. Their infantry, on the other hand, would be lucky to have more than three rifles in their unit. Their attacks would be "human wave" tactics, right? They would have the advantage of being the home team and in manpower, but we would have the advantage in skilled troops. (Though they had many skilled troops by the end of the war, too.)

                        Another advantage of ours would be that we would be the only ones with nukes (for a few years, anyway). We might have actually used them against the Soviets.
                        Conscipts get that treatment by then end of the war there were six "Shock Armies" storming their way across Europe and they were quite well equipped though they were also tools of attrition. (which the conscripts would get a break and then become replacements in a Shock Regiment, Company etc.)
                        The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed. -Carl Jung

                        Hell is other people. -Jean-Paul Sarte

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                        • #13
                          I just wonder how good the Soviet transport system would be when replacement parts for US made trucks stopped.
                          Lance W.

                          Peace through superior firepower.

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                          • #14
                            Ignoring the fact that the US really wouldn't be able to suddenly switch from ally to enemy that fast (well openly hostile enemy, obviously we went to enemy with the Russians pretty quick, but not open warfare), what I am really curious about is, what about in the Pacific (Russia's Eastern area). We had a fair number of Marines over there...
                            “To discriminate against a thoroughly upright citizen because he belongs to some particular church, or because, like Abraham Lincoln, he has not avowed his allegiance to any church, is an outrage against that liberty of conscience which is one of the foundations of American life.”

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                            • #15
                              Also take into consideration we had the Nuclear Bomb and the Russians didn't. Supposedly the option was put before Truman but he decided that would be a bad idea.
                              The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed. -Carl Jung

                              Hell is other people. -Jean-Paul Sarte

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