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  • Civilization.

    So, here’s the situation…

    something went terribly wrong with the tectonic shift and instead of the distribution of continents as we know them, there’s only two main landmasses, one roughly resembling the Euro-Asiatic-African one, another comparable to the Americas.

    On the first there’s 5 civilizations, from left to right, the English, the Arabs, a general European one under my command, the Persians a bit to the South, and the Koreans occupy the Eastern end of this continent.

    On the other there’s the Aztecs, The Great Southern Empire, which for some strange reason lies to the North.

    The year is roughly 1700 AD, much has happened, around the 5th century we invaded the Arabs to our West, defeated them and made them into a vassal state.

    More recently, about a century or two ago we crossed the ocean and defeated the Aztecs on the other continent, vassalizing them too.

    We are now the hegemon of this world, but the remaining 4 civilizations are plotting against us, already the English and Persians have entered into a mutual defensive pact, the Koreans, having enjoyed centuries of peace, have developed a technologic advantage over us.

    The European civilization, which was an absolute monarchy for most of history is on the brink of becoming a representative democracy, you have all been elected MPs, the former King consults his parliament on how to proceed, and how to become the one dominant and undisputed power of this world…

    Gentlemen, your suggestions, if you please
    High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

  • #2
    Huh, find something the Koreans want to buy from us, and ask for tech in exchange. Or spy on them, though that seems too risky. How much more advanced are they?

    Maintain our domination of the seas - if you just bat an eye, those Englishmen will steal it, and without it we can't keep our foothold in the Americas. Actually, if we do remain the naval power, the English aren't safe from us, now that I think of it. So do build ships of the line.

    Make sure the Arab vassals know that those damn Persians over the border are dirty Shiites - only under our benevolent protection can Sunni Islam prosper and be in control of the Holy Places.

    Persians have a penchant for internal strife and rebellious regional governors, so encourage that, divide et impera, etc. Maybe they can have themselves a little civil war, with our outside support for some faction (or more than one).

    Provide intel on the remaining American power about which I know next to nothing.

    Can we keep the Aztecs happy? I suppose they'd want to continue with their human sacrifices, have we forbidden that, us being on the verge of becoming very enlightened and all of that?
    Michele

    Comment


    • #3
      Well, peace usually means technological development lags, and lags badly not flourishes. This is because there's nothing to drive it. That's why in most of the America's the indigenous population didn't bother to develop more technology. In N. America the climate was generally mild, there was plenty of land and food, and there was no population pressure. So, the tribes stayed mostly hunter-gatherer and in the late stone age.
      In Middle and South America climate and terrain, along with population pressure forced technological development. It was largely the lack of readily available mineral deposits of certain types that kept metallurgy from developing beyond the late stone age.

      So, you'd expect the most advanced society to be the one(s) that face climate / terrain issues, population pressure, and the threat of conflict, not a peaceful society.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Michele View Post
        Huh, find something the Koreans want to buy from us, and ask for tech in exchange. Or spy on them, though that seems too risky. How much more advanced are they?

        Maintain our domination of the seas - if you just bat an eye, those Englishmen will steal it, and without it we can't keep our foothold in the Americas. Actually, if we do remain the naval power, the English aren't safe from us, now that I think of it. So do build ships of the line.

        Make sure the Arab vassals know that those damn Persians over the border are dirty Shiites - only under our benevolent protection can Sunni Islam prosper and be in control of the Holy Places.

        Persians have a penchant for internal strife and rebellious regional governors, so encourage that, divide et impera, etc. Maybe they can have themselves a little civil war, with our outside support for some faction (or more than one).

        Provide intel on the remaining American power about which I know next to nothing.

        Can we keep the Aztecs happy? I suppose they'd want to continue with their human sacrifices, have we forbidden that, us being on the verge of becoming very enlightened and all of that?
        The remaining North American power is known only for its strange national anthem:
        Land of the silver birch
        Home of the beaver
        Where still the mighty moose
        Wanders at will

        Chorus:
        Blue lake and rocky shore
        I will return once more
        Boom did-y-ah-dah
        Boom did-y-ah-dah
        Boom did-y-ah-dah, boom
        My heart is sick for thee
        Here in the lowlands
        I will return to thee
        Hills of the north
        Swift as a silver fish
        Canoe of birch bark
        By mighty waterways
        Carry me forth
        High on a rocky ledge
        I'll build my wigwam
        Close to the water's edge
        Silent and still

        (note: Land of the Silver Birch can be sung simultaneously with My Paddle for a fabulous effect!)

        \beware of "saltbacks":- Aztecs who swim the Atlantic to enter your paradise illegally.......
        /






        The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Michele View Post
          Huh, find something the Koreans want to buy from us, and ask for tech in exchange. Or spy on them, though that seems too risky. How much more advanced are they?
          Well they had divisons with modern rifles in the field when we only had muskets, but as it happens, last night I sent my envoy and finance minister Alexander MacKenzie over to their capital, to investigate them, steal one of those modern rifles to reverse engineer AND make us a heap of cash in the process….

          So we are now in a position to modernize enough divisons for a surprise attack if this house deems that to be the proper course of action.

          MacKenzie has been knighted for his efforts, as I'm sure you will agree was appropriate

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexan...nzie_(explorer)

          We do not share a land border with Korea though, the Persians are in between, so it will have to be an amphibious operation.

          MacKenzie reported the Korean capital to be magnificent btw, possibly the greatest city in the known world and certainly an attractive target.
          Last edited by Snowygerry; 21 Nov 19, 07:13.
          High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
            Well, peace usually means technological development lags, and lags badly not flourishes. This is because there's nothing to drive it.

            So, you'd expect the most advanced society to be the one(s) that face climate / terrain issues, population pressure, and the threat of conflict, not a peaceful society.
            Well yes, but while the Koreans may have been at peace with the Europeans and the Persians (which appear to be the bordering civilizations), that's peace at the top level. It's entirely possible they have had the equivalent of never-ending civil wars. For the real-history parallel, look at the Sengoku period; the Japanese improved their matchlock muskets over that time, but the wars stimulating the developments were almost only civil wars, not wars on external powers.

            And apart from the possibility of civil wars, how come the Koreans, not the Chinese or the Japanese or the Mongols, are the namesake civilization-level power in that part of the world? Probably they have subjugated and integrated those peoples, through war.

            Michele

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Michele View Post
              Maintain our domination of the seas - if you just bat an eye, those Englishmen will steal it, and without it we can't keep our foothold in the Americas. Actually, if we do remain the naval power, the English aren't safe from us, now that I think of it. So do build ships of the line.
              The English are a concern yes, not just as a potential naval power, but also because of their defensive alliance with the Persians, together they occupy our entire land border, an attack on either will trigger continent wide war on multiple fronts.

              Also - our military intelligence fears that should they get their hands on those modern rifles, their tactical ability and marksmanship may lead to them fielding divisions of what they call "Redcoats" - sounds gay to me, but our experts are convinced they would be more than a match even for our upgraded rifle divisions.

              "A Ship of the Line" is like a "Frigate" then I assume, but bigger and with more guns ? I'll tell the admirality to look into it, certainly
              Last edited by Snowygerry; 21 Nov 19, 04:08.
              High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

              Comment


              • #8
                This "Parliament" thing is much more active then anticipated I must admit, not at all like the Royal Council, where everybody is asleep most of the time,

                allow me to adress your points one by one as time permits, thank you gentlemen
                High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Michele View Post
                  (…)
                  Can we keep the Aztecs happy? I suppose they'd want to continue with their human sacrifices, have we forbidden that, us being on the verge of becoming very enlightened and all of that ?
                  Hmm - that's an issue this house must adress, indeed.

                  Since before written history even, slavery has been an essential part of our society, while we never went so far as to sacrifice humans to some deity, we did make extensive use of unfree men to use as soldiers and to quickly build various improvements that now make us the greatest civilization on earth and the one with the most potential for further growth.

                  Slaves built libraries, universities, courthouses and what not, who else would, sure I won't….

                  But as you point out, progressive thinkers have suggested the times they are changing, and the era of slavery is coming to an end.

                  Persian philosophers have even come up with something they call "Emancipation" suggesting that all men are born equal, even women, imagine that

                  Nothing good can come from such ideas imho, but if a majority of this house should agree that that is indeed the way forward, who am I to stand in the way of "progress", let me know your stance on the matter and our new constitution will reflect it.

                  For the moment the Aztecs are extremely happy, they organize festivals in my honour just about every year, but that may change if we start to interfere in their internal affairs idk….
                  Last edited by Snowygerry; 21 Nov 19, 08:32.
                  High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Make sure the Arab vassals know that those damn Persians over the border are dirty Shiites - only under our benevolent protection can Sunni Islam prosper and be in control of the Holy Places.
                    The Arabs our now our trusted vassals, have been for over a millennium, they are are a small "buffer state" covering part of our southern border from the English.

                    But they share a religion with the English in fact, if we go to war with the English, we may see rebellions in Arab lands, nothing we can't handle - I'm sure.
                    Last edited by Snowygerry; 21 Nov 19, 05:29.
                    High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
                      Well, peace usually means technological development lags, and lags badly not flourishes. This is because there's nothing to drive it. That's why in most of the America's the indigenous population didn't bother to develop more technology. In N. America the climate was generally mild, there was plenty of land and food, and there was no population pressure. So, the tribes stayed mostly hunter-gatherer and in the late stone age.
                      In Middle and South America climate and terrain, along with population pressure forced technological development. It was largely the lack of readily available mineral deposits of certain types that kept metallurgy from developing beyond the late stone age.

                      So, you'd expect the most advanced society to be the one(s) that face climate / terrain issues, population pressure, and the threat of conflict, not a peaceful society.
                      That seems to be case yes, civilizations on our "main" continent are more advanced than those that were secluded on the secondary continent, Aztecs and Southerners.

                      When a combined European, Persian and English effort was made to cross the oceans and establish colonies there, their armies did not really match ours, but of course, distance and limited force projection abilities up untill now, meant progress was slow and costly.

                      The Koreans, who didn't partake in those trans-oceanic expeditions were presumably able to direct more resources towards scientific development - but they have no overseas colonies now, while the others do.

                      Originally posted by Michele View Post
                      And apart from the possibility of civil wars, how come the Koreans, not the Chinese or the Japanese or the Mongols, are the namesake civilization-level power in that part of the world? Probably they have subjugated and integrated those peoples, through war.
                      Eh, I wouldn't deduce anything from that, the engine just takes the the chosen number of civilizations and assigns more or less random start positions, more "historical" settings are certainly possible, but this particular game isn't set up like that
                      Last edited by Snowygerry; 21 Nov 19, 05:32.
                      High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by marktwain View Post
                        beware of "saltbacks":- Aztecs who swim the Atlantic to enter your paradise illegally.......
                        For the moment we have open border agreements with our vassals, and the Persians and Koreans because it benefits trade and technological advancement (also because it allowed us to move divisions over land to their eastern ports, and ship them from there to the colonies) , but not with the English and the Southerners, those arrangements can be adjusted if you want
                        Last edited by Snowygerry; 21 Nov 19, 07:31.
                        High Admiral Snowy, Commander In Chief of the Naval Forces of The Phoenix Confederation.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post

                          Well they had divisons with modern rifles in the field when we only had muskets, but has it happens, last night I sent my envoy and finance minister Alexander MacKenzie over their capital, to investigate them, steal one of those modern rifles to reverse engineer AND make us a heap of cash in the process….

                          So we are now in a position to modernize enough divisons for a surprise attack if this house deems that to be the proper course of action.

                          MacKenzie has been knighted for his efforts, as I'm sure you will agree was appropriate

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexan...nzie_(explorer)
                          Well done.

                          We do not share a land border with Korea though, the Persians are in between, so it will have to be an amphibious operation.

                          MacKenzie reported the Korean capital to be magnificent btw, possibly the greatest city in the known world and certainly an attractive target.
                          It sounds like a bad idea to me. The Koreans might be ahead of us in other technology and scientific field we have not fathomed yet, and prove a tougher nut to crack than we expect; on top of that, the Persian-English alliance may well be defensive, but if we find committed to a longer, more difficult war against the Koreans than we expect, these two other powers might jump at the chace of attacking us. With that, we'd be at war against three powers, while having to keep under control the Arabs and the Aztecs.

                          Are the Koreans determinedly peace-loving and neutral? What's their relationship with the Persians? Because the same principle the Anglo-Persians are applying to us, could be applied to the Persians, if we, far from attacking the distant and not well known Koreans, seek an alliance with them, instead.
                          Michele

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Snowygerry View Post
                            Eh, I wouldn't deduce anything from that, the engine just takes the the chosen number of civilizations and assigns more or less random start positions, more "historical" settings are certainly possible, but this particular game isn't set up like that
                            I understand. It was an in-character theoretical point.
                            Michele

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Apart from foreign relations, geostrategic considerations, and technology, what's the state of the economy? If the Aztecs are our vassals, I gather we have access to untold amounts of gold and silver? Is there any strategic raw material we are short of?
                              Michele

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