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Why did HITLER not take Gibraltar and turn the Mediterranean into a "German lake".

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  • #46
    Originally posted by lewinski View Post
    What about using NERVE GAS

    the Nazis produced 12,000 tons of NERVE GAS they had to use it somewhere?


    https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/f...hey-not-use-it
    'considered not cricket and terribly unsporting", ol chap....
    The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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    • #47
      Originally posted by marktwain View Post

      'considered not cricket and terribly unsporting", ol chap....
      At least there is still marktwain.

      Comment


      • #48
        The use of nerve gas would not save the Third Reich .And,people had gas masks .

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by lewinski View Post
          What about using NERVE GAS

          the Nazis produced 12,000 tons of NERVE GAS they had to use it somewhere?


          https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/f...hey-not-use-it
          Where are they going to drop it? And using what?
          Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the cheesemakers

          That's right bitches. I'm blessed!

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Rojik View Post

            Where are they going to drop it? And using what?
            They aren't, of course. Nowhere that has any real impact on a Mediterranean strategy, let alone this pipe dream.
            By the time the Germans had significant amounts of nerve agents, they had long lost any chance of dominance on the Mediterranean. And this doesn't even get into the fact that weaponization was a problem, or the issue of the delivery platforms, which your second question is about.
            Michele

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            • #51
              100000 tons of Chemical Weapons were used in WWI, causing 90000 deaths .
              The the claim that 12500 tons of CW were sufficient to kill the world population is ridiculous .

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Rojik View Post
                Where are they going to drop it? And using what?
                "500,000 artillery shells and 100,000 bombs filled with Tabun had been stockpiled by the end of the war,..."

                Quote from "Hitlers Secret Weapons 1933-1945: the essential facts and figures for Germany's secret weapons program" by David Porter.

                How to drop bombs from planes and fire artillery shells you probably already know.

                If not just ask.


                Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                The use of nerve gas would not save the Third Reich .And,people had gas masks .
                A gas mask won't help you.

                You don't have to breathe it in.

                Nerve gases are absorbed through the skin.

                One quite small drop on the skin will kill you.

                And yes, the use of nerve gas would have saved Germany, especially if they used a little on Hitler first.


                Originally posted by ljadw View Post
                100000 tons of Chemical Weapons were used in WWI, causing 90000 deaths .
                The the claim that 12500 tons of CW were sufficient to kill the world population is ridiculous .
                Apparently, if you breathe it in, the lethal dose is around 0.15 milligrams/kilogram.

                If an average person is 50 kg then the lethal dose is 7.5 milligrams.

                12,000 tons is about 12,000 tonnes = 12,000,000,000 milligrams.

                So 12,000 tons could kill 1,600,000,000 = 1.6 billion people.

                If they all lined up for their dose.

                On the skin the lethal dose is around 20 milligrams/kilogram.

                I've corrected a mistake in the original claim.

                You could check this new claim for me.

                Last edited by lewinski; 13 Nov 19, 20:16.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by lewinski View Post

                  If Gibraltar falls then Alexandria, Cyprus,... How will they be resupplied?

                  No ammunition, no replacement guns/tanks/men.
                  .
                  No resupply via the Suez canal

                  Axis armies would have reached the canal and it could have filled it in with a teaspoon if they desired.
                  The Allied armies would be supplied through Suez as they were historically, several posters have already mentioned that supplies went around the Cape.

                  Even if the Gibraltar falls it doesnt change the situation in the Western Desert, in 1940 the Axis lack the forces & logistical infrastructure to drive into Egypt.

                  Originally posted by lewinski View Post


                  As the allied ships left the Suez canal, one by one, the waiting axis ships, submarines, and planes would have sunk each one. Maybe the Italian navy by itself could handle this. I think you need a better plan.

                  Actually, sinking the ships before they left the canal is a better option, as they would block the canal.
                  .

                  But one U-boat would probably suffice to pick off each supply ship/warship as it exits the Suez canal into the Mediterranean to Alexandria. You could park a number there if you want to make super-sure of picking off all the supply ships.



                  This is just a ridiculous suggestion.
                  Any U-boat lurking off of the Nile Delta would be immediately attacked by Allied patrol aircraft and port defence destroyers/corvettes/ASW trawlers, there are literally dozens of each.

                  Germany had a grand total of zero subs in the Med between Jan 1940 and Aug 1941.
                  They have only about 44 Ocean going boats when war begins, and they lose 29 subs (65% of their starting fleet) in the first 12 months of war.
                  Source = https://www.uboat.net

                  Of the 3 U-boats sent in 1939, 2 are disabled by British attacks or mechanical failure and abort. The 3rd passes through Gibraltar but sinks no ships.

                  Of the 29 U-boats sent/active in the Med during 6 months between Sept 16, 1941 and Mar 15, 1942, 5 are sunk in the Med by the Allies, 1 by mistake by Italy and 1 more is damaged. 3 more U-boats are sunk near Gibraltar trying to transit through the straights.

                  The U-boats total in those 6 months is 10 freighters sunk (over 1,000 tons) and 9 Allied warships/escorts sunk, for 9 Uboats lost to all causes.

                  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medi...​​

                  The idea that a single U-boat off of Port Said wouldn't be attacked and would be allowed to sink dozens of ships is just ludicrous.

                  If it was so simple why didn't the Axis send a couple of subs down to the Nile delta?
                  Because it was too well protected...
                  Last edited by Freebird; 13 Nov 19, 16:26.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by lewinski View Post

                    When the Germans take the Strait of Gibraltar the Royal Navy ships in the Mediterranean are cut off, surrounded, encircled by the Germans.

                    The British ships cannot be easily resupplied, even by shipping everything overland, from some Red Sea port through the desert to Alexandria.


                    .
                    As mentioned before, the Axis lack the ability to blockade the Nile Delta.

                    However, even in the exceedingly unlikely and bizarre event that they did, the Red Sea ports are connected by rail.

                    Here's two maps of Egyptian railways in the 1930s.

                    13111.jpg

                    01942.jpg

                    Originally posted by lewinski View Post


                    Which Red Sea port and port facilities & supply route are you talking/dreaming about?

                    It takes time to set up such a resupply route.

                    Thousands of trucks and a suitable route do not just appear by magic.

                    .

                    Since you ask, at the beginning of WWII there are already at least 6 Red Sea or Suez canal accessible ports connected to Egypt by rail.

                    Suez (Port)
                    Port Said
                    Ismaila
                    Damietta (connected via canal)

                    01992.jpg
                    Port Sudan

                    16315074282_8ce38fa54e_b.jpg
                    Quantara

                    Last edited by Freebird; 13 Nov 19, 17:42.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Freebird View Post

                      The Allied armies would be supplied through Suez as they were historically, several posters have already mentioned that supplies went around the Cape.

                      Even if the Gibraltar falls it doesnt change the situation in the Western Desert, in 1940 the Axis lack the forces & logistical infrastructure to drive into Egypt.
                      Thanks for the info and photos.

                      If Gibraltar falls, of course it changes the situation in the Desert.

                      Lets just imagine that the Germans now send ALL their U-boats to the Mediterranean.

                      Including the smaller submarines which they transported to the Black Sea by road.

                      Do you think that the (however many there were) British ships are going to be able to hold out against just the submarines, let alone whatever else headed their way. Now add in the Italian Navy and larger German warships that can now enter the Mediterranean [of course they couldn't before because the British held Gibraltar]. Now add in continuous attack by the Luftwaffe.
                      Then add in attack by ground troops to take Egypt.

                      Even if the entire British Navy had been trapped in the Mediterranean, they could not hold out against this.

                      The reason the allies did not lose Egypt to axis troops was that ammunition equipment etc was resupplied through Gibraltar and Suez.

                      The Suez canal route could easily have been closed.

                      I guess the minor railways & port facilities could have eventually been up-graded to take the necessary loads.

                      But by then it would have been too late.

                      You dream if you think the (part of the) British Navy trapped could hold out for long.
                      Last edited by lewinski; 13 Nov 19, 20:47.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by lewinski View Post

                        At least there is still marktwain.
                        AKA the Oracle of the Northern PRAIRIES..

                        Franco is an interesting sturdy, and walked a pretty fine line before 1943.
                        To consider him as just another
                        fascist is a misnomer-
                        The Catholic church wielded a great deal of power, and was increasingly anti Hitler after the persecutions of Catholic clergy in German occupied areas.
                        Franco was a devout catholic.
                        Plus, Spain was bankrupt - the bulk of the Spanish gold reserves, in 1936 the fourth largest in the world, were Transferred to the soviet union to pay for war supplies and 'assorted fees.'


                        While he snoozed an attention hungry Hitler in 1940- he failed or refused to sign on.
                        Last edited by marktwain; 16 Nov 19, 21:27.
                        The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by lewinski View Post

                          Thanks for the info and photos.

                          If Gibraltar falls, of course it changes the situation in the Desert.

                          Lets just imagine that the Germans now send ALL their U-boats to the Mediterranean.

                          Including the smaller submarines which they transported to the Black Sea by road.

                          Do you think that the (however many there were) British ships are going to be able to hold out against just the submarines, let alone whatever else headed their way. Now add in the Italian Navy and larger German warships that can now enter the Mediterranean [of course they couldn't before because the British held Gibraltar]. Now add in continuous attack by the Luftwaffe.
                          Then add in attack by ground troops to take Egypt.

                          Even if the entire British Navy had been trapped in the Mediterranean, they could not hold out against this.

                          The reason the allies did not lose Egypt to axis troops was that ammunition equipment etc was resupplied through Gibraltar and Suez.

                          The Suez canal route could easily have been closed.

                          I guess the minor railways & port facilities could have eventually been up-graded to take the necessary loads.

                          But by then it would have been too late.

                          You dream if you think the (part of the) British Navy trapped could hold out for long.
                          Ammunition and equipment were NOT resupplied through Gibraltar and only a part of the supplies for the Commonwealth forces in NA were going through the Suez canal . Besides, the importance of the Suez canal in WWII was much exaggerated .
                          German large warships could NOT enter the Mediterranean during WWII .Besides, there was no need for these ships in the Mediterranean ,because the Italian navy was already there .
                          For the submarines : the Germans would be very stupid to send all their submarines to the Mediterranean and thus to give up their attacks on the Atlantic convoys . Besides, there was no way that 200 U Boats could operate in the Mediterranean .

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by lewinski View Post

                            The best and most obvious solution is the following:

                            The Germans would have just moved via the Spanish road system (prime-movers for the tanks) without Spain's permission. Franco couldn't/wouldn't attack the Germans; that would be suicide. Franco would not declare war on the Allies. That would be stupid.


                            "By allowing the Germans to transit Spain on route to Gibraltar Spain would be in breach of her neutrality and would be at war with the Allies."

                            Franco wouldn't have allowed the Germans to use the roads; they would have just used the roads. End of story. Franco has no say in the matter, unless the poor timid coward Hitler, lets him. Why should Hitler care what the pip-squeak Franco says or thinks.

                            If the allies declare war on Spain, then they create another enemy.

                            I'm sure the Nazis would have been over-joyed.


                            "1 Hitler could do nothing with Gibraltar" Chuckle.

                            "2 It was impossible to capture Gibraltar" Chuckle.

                            "3 It would be suicidal : Spain would be a drain on German resources and the occupation of Spain would make Barbarossa impossible." Chuckle.
                            Interestingly enough, you are right on the roads issue. Miguel Primo de Rivera had , as part of an intensive public works program in the 1920's, built up an impressive network of Spanish motorways by 1930. \backed by Spain's then massive gold reserves, the program elevated rural agriculture wages- as landlords had to compete to retain their workforce.

                            \an interesting guy...

                            https://www.bing.com/search?q=spain+...f28791b4309162

                            The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by marktwain View Post
                              Interestingly enough, you are right on the roads issue. Miguel Primo de Rivera had , as part of an intensive public works program in the 1920's, built up an impressive network of Spanish motorways by 1930. ]
                              Yeah.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by marktwain View Post

                                Interestingly enough, you are right on the roads issue. Miguel Primo de Rivera had , as part of an intensive public works program in the 1920's, built up an impressive network of Spanish motorways by 1930. \backed by Spain's then massive gold reserves, the program elevated rural agriculture wages- as landlords had to compete to retain their workforce.
                                Primo de Rivera's public works program was very impressive and up to the early 1930's Spain's roadwork improved. However what needs to be taken into account is the impact of the Spanish Civil War and its after-effects.

                                The quotes below are taken from THE GROWTH AND MODERNISATION OF SPAIN`S ROAD NETWORK, 1900-
                                2010. a paper by Mª Inmaculada López Ortiz, Joaquín Melgarejo Moreno and Borja Montaño Sanz.

                                On the state of the road system in Spain post Civil War

                                In 1939, the Franco dictatorship was faced with a war-damaged country with a profoundly
                                distorted economy. The infrastructures were seriously deteriorated having been the primary
                                objectives of the military operations of both armies. In a special issue in December 1940, the
                                Journal Revista de Obras Públicas quoted a figure of 2,651 roads that had been destroyed during
                                the war.
                                (p12)

                                The conclusions of Alfonso Peña Boeuf, the minister of Public Works who was in charge of the General Plan of Public Works developed in 1939 to rebuild the infrastructure:

                                The main objective of Peña´s Plan was the repair of the damage caused by the war, the
                                reconstruction of bridges and resurfacing. The construction of new roads and the repair of the
                                existing ones were only contemplated if funds were available However, the scarcity of all types
                                of materials made it impossible to fulfil even the first objective. The minister himself, Peña
                                Boeuf (1946:301) made it clear that the Spain had serious problems regarding the supply of
                                materials in the post-war period, referring to the needs for asphalt of 1,300,000 tonnes in order
                                to repair the 36,000 kilometres of roads that were in poor condition and to surface the rest. Far
                                from having access to this amount, only 40,000 tonnes of asphalt and 23,000 of tar were
                                available, therefore the repairs were so “precarious” that “only the large pot-holes” were
                                repaired and the minister declared that being able to drive on the roads was “nothing short of
                                a miracle”
                                (p13)

                                As the paper shows, it was not until 1960 that the modernization plan to repair the infrastructure was completed.
                                So in the time frame this OP takes place in, the roads in Spain were in a state of extreme disrepair, bridges had not been rebuilt and transportation via road was extremely difficult.

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