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7th fleet's battleships at the Battle off Samar instead of Taffy 3

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  • 7th fleet's battleships at the Battle off Samar instead of Taffy 3

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_off_Samar

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyte_...Surigao_Strait

    This scenario assumes that instead of Taffy 3 the battleships, cruisers and destroyers of 7th Fleet that in real life were at Surigao Strait,are covering the landings off Samar. It is these that are engaged by the Japanese Central Force.

    As 7th Fleet is covering the landings the battleships would be inshore (supporting the landings) and furthest away from the arriving Japanese fleet so I imagine the respective fleet's destroyers and cruisers would engage before the battleships. The lighter ship engagement could go either way depending on the effectiveness of the long lance and the likely torpedo attack from the US destroyers.
    The US would have the advantage in numbers of battleships but this was the battle Yamato was designed to fight, and few would want to be on the receiving end of 18" shells in an old ww1 or interwar battleship.


    "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

  • #2
    Originally posted by Surrey View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_off_Samar

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyte_...Surigao_Strait

    This scenario assumes that instead of Taffy 3 the battleships, cruisers and destroyers of 7th Fleet that in real life were at Surigao Strait,are covering the landings off Samar. It is these that are engaged by the Japanese Central Force.

    As 7th Fleet is covering the landings the battleships would be inshore (supporting the landings) and furthest away from the arriving Japanese fleet so I imagine the respective fleet's destroyers and cruisers would engage before the battleships. The lighter ship engagement could go either way depending on the effectiveness of the long lance and the likely torpedo attack from the US destroyers.
    The US would have the advantage in numbers of battleships but this was the battle Yamato was designed to fight, and few would want to be on the receiving end of 18" shells in an old ww1 or interwar battleship.

    far from an expert here.. but I think in the long run the Japanese would have been wiped out....For one thing I think the American radar and gunnery were superior and those old Us battleships had been totally refitted......here is the story on the West Virginia,,,,,,,,
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_West_Virginia_(BB-48)

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    • #3
      Originally posted by jeffdoorgunnr View Post

      far from an expert here.. but I think in the long run the Japanese would have been wiped out....For one thing I think the American radar and gunnery were superior and those old Us battleships had been totally refitted......here is the story on the West Virginia,,,,,,,,
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_West_Virginia_(BB-48)
      The radar on the American ships would be key. In real life Taffy hid in the squalls. In theory the old battleships could do the same but in this scenario they would be able to fire on the Japanese from within the squalls using radar. With the exception of Yamato the Japanese wouldn't be able to see to fire back.

      "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Surrey View Post

        In theory the old battleships could do the same but in this scenario they would be able to fire on the Japanese from within the squalls using radar.
        I think that radar is also affected by rain. I am uncertain as to whether or not the degradation is sufficient to render the fire control solutions ineffective.
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        • #5
          Originally posted by Surrey View Post

          The radar on the American ships would be key. In real life Taffy hid in the squalls. In theory the old battleships could do the same but in this scenario they would be able to fire on the Japanese from within the squalls using radar. With the exception of Yamato the Japanese wouldn't be able to see to fire back.
          Admiral Kurita, interviewed after the war, claimed that " he withdrew because Japan had lost when their oil supplies were cut off, and he was appalled at the further pointless loss of fine young men."

          IIRC, there was some question of how accurate the 18.1" guns were.

          good topic....
          The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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          • #6
            Drachinfel did an excellent analysis of this on Youtube. I'd encourage anyone to look it up.

            Conclusions varied quite a bit over the multiple games they did. But ultimately some conclusions seemed to even out:

            1) The US would use the squalls, with mixed effects (the older BBs didn't all have the best radars and radars of the time were prone to breakdowns) but generally the Japanese are going to get hosed quite a bit.

            2) The Japanese would bring their BB line in tighter and wouldn't misidentify ships as badly as they did historically.

            3) The US would win the DD brawl hands down, but lose some ships, and potentially lose a couple of cruisers due to the circumstances.

            4) The US is in a position where they would be obligated to block, so at some point the cruisers and battle line will have to be exposed to fire in order to force a continued engagement.

            5) Depending on factors, the US is likely to lose 2-4 of the older BBs as either sunk or combat effective kills. Depends on how much of the US DD and cruiser force remains and how the Japanese target, principally how Yamato does shooting on that day.

            6) The Japanese will get away with alternatively nothing, a damaged Yamato, or a combination of ships depending of if/when they break off.
            Tacitos, Satrap of Kyrene

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            • #7
              As badly as the Japanese did in RL, I don't think that things would have gone any better if they really came up against battleships. Although they claimed that they wanted the one decisive surface engagement, they didn't do well when they got it.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_off_Samar

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyte_...Surigao_Strait

                This scenario assumes that instead of Taffy 3 the battleships, cruisers and destroyers of 7th Fleet that in real life were at Surigao Strait,are covering the landings off Samar. It is these that are engaged by the Japanese Central Force.

                As 7th Fleet is covering the landings the battleships would be inshore (supporting the landings) and furthest away from the arriving Japanese fleet so I imagine the respective fleet's destroyers and cruisers would engage before the battleships. The lighter ship engagement could go either way depending on the effectiveness of the long lance and the likely torpedo attack from the US destroyers.
                The US would have the advantage in numbers of battleships but this was the battle Yamato was designed to fight, and few would want to be on the receiving end of 18" shells in an old ww1 or interwar battleship.

                https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2015/0...ta-what-if-he/

                Weapons and Warfare surmises that Kurita would have been mauled, with little to show, as the landing on Leyte was 5 days old, and McArthur had three weeks of supplies.
                The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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