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  • Pruitt
    replied
    Cotton was just being introduced in Northeast Texas in the Marshall area. There was even a rail line built to there so the crop could be shipped through Shreveport and down the Red. The soil here was rich and there was enough rainfall. Now Cotton is grown far to the West because they can use fertilizer and pump water from the aquifers.

    Pruitt

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  • Arnold J Rimmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post

    It was that line about Texas being a Cotton State before the ACW, which meant Slavery. Cotton does not strike me as growing well in the East Texas Piney Woods to the Austin area. The Germans around Fredericksburg made it work without Slaves. Texas was involved with Cattle Drives to New Orleans since the Spanish era. Cattle were sent over the Camino Real. A branch was through the Sulphur, LA area I lived in.

    Pruitt
    We still grow a lot of cotton today. Two billion dollars worth. We've always been a cotton state.

    Cotton = slavery, and slavery = cotton in the pre-ACW USA.

    There were not 182,000 house servants in Texas in 1860, nor were slaves used to herd cattle.

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  • Arnold J Rimmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Surrey View Post

    While the Indians were a threat and doubtless prevented the full settlement of Texas, the Anglo Americans were surviving before the annexation. Plus despite the Indians the Mexicans and before them the Spanish had managed to survive for centuries. And the Spanish would have had flintlocks when they first arrived.
    Over time the Anglo Americans would only have go stronger and more populous.
    The Spanish had matchlocks when they first arrived.

    The Spanish, as was their habit, released horses into the wild so that they could, in the future, gather remounts locally instead of a constant shipment of horses. This literally created the Plains Indian culture. With time, the Comanche, now mounted, pushed the Spanish/Mexican presidio line back, until the Mexican government had the bright idea of inviting Americans into Texas as colonists to act as a buffer against the Indians. This turned out as you know.

    During the time of the Republic the Comanche raided clear to the coast, sacking an entire town on one occasion. Only the smallpox outbreaks gave the settlers any respite, but that was, as history shows, just a temporary aid, just as the post 1836 political turmoil in Mexico helped them for the first five years.

    But without troops and cash, the Republic was doomed, and they knew it. Reading from the period it is clear that the Texans (or Texians) were just marking time until the USA came in.

    Once in the USA all Texas needed was the 'fort line' and troops to manage them, because the war that unification brought settled the issues with Mexico for decades.

    The price of Texas for the USA was war, first with Mexico, then the fort line until the 1880s.

    The only way Texas could exist is with the aid of a government that shouldered that load.

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  • Pruitt
    replied
    Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
    But again, why are you discussing the ACW in a thread about a period twenty years earlier?
    It was that line about Texas being a Cotton State before the ACW, which meant Slavery. Cotton does not strike me as growing well in the East Texas Piney Woods to the Austin area. The Germans around Fredericksburg made it work without Slaves. Texas was involved with Cattle Drives to New Orleans since the Spanish era. Cattle were sent over the Camino Real. A branch was through the Sulphur, LA area I lived in.

    Pruitt

    Leave a comment:


  • Surrey
    replied
    Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post

    In 1836 there were probably 5,000 blacks, 30,000 Anglo-Americans, 3,470 Hispanics, and 14,200 Indians in Texas.

    The majority of the blacks were slaves. You can figure about a third of the Hispanic population was not pro-Republic.

    So a regular army of 300-600 was the most Texas could field without wrecking its economy. They did have a standing force of 200 men on and off for a total of 30 months out of 9 years, but lacking a treasury they frequently disbanded it for lack of funds.

    In 1847 a partial enumeration was made showing a population of 135,000, of whom 39,000 were slaves. Still insufficient to field an army of 5000, even if there were funds available.

    By comparison, in 1860, the population was 604,000, of which 182,000 were slaves. Possibly sufficient to field a regular military of 5000 with a peacetime economy.

    So, you are looking at 24 years minimum commitment of troops. And not incidentally, the sponsoring nation would have to be willing to send said troops to defend a new nation where slavery was legal; a key element in the Texas Revolution was Mexico's opposition to slavery. Great Britain opposed slavery and the slave trade, so would they help a slave-owning nation? Without slavery, Texas' population and economy would not have grown as rapidly as it did historically.

    As noted, Texas was a cotton state in the 1830s-60s, which meant slavery.
    While the Indians were a threat and doubtless prevented the full settlement of Texas, the Anglo Americans were surviving before the annexation. Plus despite the Indians the Mexicans and before them the Spanish had managed to survive for centuries. And the Spanish would have had flintlocks when they first arrived.
    Over time the Anglo Americans would only have go stronger and more populous.

    Leave a comment:


  • Arnold J Rimmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
    I don't have the time to search but I am only aware of the 1st Texas Cavalry (Union). Just goes to show that Texans had to leave to serve in the Union Army. You are aware that a number of Rebel Prisoners were recruited to fight Indians? That could account for some of your "fillers". Some Confederate deserters enlisted in the New England regiments in Louisiana. If they were captured and recognized they were hung. I have a book put away written by a Texan that tried to dodge the Draft in the Big Thicket and had to run to the woods along the upper Calcasieu River. There the Confederate Cavalry made him run for Union lines. He enlisted as an officer in a Louisiana Union Cavalry Regiment and participated in the Red River Campaign. He ended the war with a job in the Freedman's Bureau.

    Pruitt
    Yes, I know about 'Galvanized Yankees'. I wasn't counting those.

    The Big Thicket fighting has seen substantial documentation.

    But again, why are you discussing the ACW in a thread about a period twenty years earlier?

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  • Pruitt
    replied
    I don't have the time to search but I am only aware of the 1st Texas Cavalry (Union). Just goes to show that Texans had to leave to serve in the Union Army. You are aware that a number of Rebel Prisoners were recruited to fight Indians? That could account for some of your "fillers". Some Confederate deserters enlisted in the New England regiments in Louisiana. If they were captured and recognized they were hung. I have a book put away written by a Texan that tried to dodge the Draft in the Big Thicket and had to run to the woods along the upper Calcasieu River. There the Confederate Cavalry made him run for Union lines. He enlisted as an officer in a Louisiana Union Cavalry Regiment and participated in the Red River Campaign. He ended the war with a job in the Freedman's Bureau.

    Pruitt

    Leave a comment:


  • Arnold J Rimmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post

    Not so much. Texas sent a Brigade to Northern Virginia and a Couple of Infantry Brigades to the Army of the Tennessee. The rest of Texan troops fought West of the Mississippi. Even these were mostly Cavalry. The Texans did dismount several Cavalry regiments and a couple of brigades of Cavalry. Walker's Texas Infantry Division (The Greyhounds) fought in Arkansas and Louisiana. One Texas Cavalry Regiment (39th) did an atrocity in Arkansas with Indian units (Poison Grove in Arkansas).

    I can't think of where you think the Union Troops were at in Texas. The Union took Galveston and then lost it to Colonel Green's Brigade of Cavalry. There was a Union raid from Brownsville that reached Laredo before going back. There were some deserters in the Big Thicket but Texas Cavalry kept running them into Louisiana. Most of the Germans that were Unionist ran for Mexico early. Some were caught and executed. If you did not want to wear gray in Texas you had to hide in the Woods or on the Indian Frontier. The Apache and Comanche did not like them either. If you wanted to enlist in the Union Army you had to go to Mexico (or Galveston before it was taken back). I don't see where you get that nearly as many Texans wore Blue as Gray, unless the Texans were looting a Union supply train.

    Pruitt
    They didn't fight in Texas.

    There are memorials to Texans who served in the Union all over Texas. Only one unit was titled as a Texas regiment; the rest were individual fillers.

    As to the Big Thicket, it wasn't the pro-Union holdouts who were running...

    But you still haven't answered why you're still talking about the Civil War in a thread about an independent Texas.

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  • Pruitt
    replied
    Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
    Texas, Hood's Brigade notwithstanding, was not that deeply set into the Southern Cause; a third of the state was in pro-Union hands throughout the war, and nearly as many Texans wore blue as gray.
    Not so much. Texas sent a Brigade to Northern Virginia and a Couple of Infantry Brigades to the Army of the Tennessee. The rest of Texan troops fought West of the Mississippi. Even these were mostly Cavalry. The Texans did dismount several Cavalry regiments and a couple of brigades of Cavalry. Walker's Texas Infantry Division (The Greyhounds) fought in Arkansas and Louisiana. One Texas Cavalry Regiment (39th) did an atrocity in Arkansas with Indian units (Poison Grove in Arkansas).

    I can't think of where you think the Union Troops were at in Texas. The Union took Galveston and then lost it to Colonel Green's Brigade of Cavalry. There was a Union raid from Brownsville that reached Laredo before going back. There were some deserters in the Big Thicket but Texas Cavalry kept running them into Louisiana. Most of the Germans that were Unionist ran for Mexico early. Some were caught and executed. If you did not want to wear gray in Texas you had to hide in the Woods or on the Indian Frontier. The Apache and Comanche did not like them either. If you wanted to enlist in the Union Army you had to go to Mexico (or Galveston before it was taken back). I don't see where you get that nearly as many Texans wore Blue as Gray, unless the Texans were looting a Union supply train.

    Pruitt

    Leave a comment:


  • Arnold J Rimmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
    Not all Texas Farmers were growing Cotton. They had to grow their own food. During the ACW the
    Confederate Government dunned the farmers for Corn, Wheat, Potatoes, (oats?) and other green vegetables. They also wanted Cattle and Horses. It was quite a list. In return Kirby-Smith MIGHT give some of the profit on Cotton sales (plus some consumer goods). Shoes, needles, thread and coffee was quite dear. Salt was hard to get as the Union Navy would likely destroy salt pans. It is hard to preserve meat without salt.

    Pruitt
    You keep focusing on a period nearly twenty years after Texas joined the Union. The conditions then had nothing in comparison with the conditions Republic faced.

    And of course not all farmers were growing cotton, but a lot were. Cotton and to a lesser extent timber was king in Texas before the war, followed by beef and horses after, then oil.

    During the ACW Texas was the main conduit for manufactured goods delivered to Mexican ports and brought overland to the Confederacy, until Vicksburg fell. Even after that there was some smuggling.

    What the Confederate gov't wanted, and what they got, were two different things. Cotton could be sold for hard cash (the peso was 1:1 with the US dollar in this period, and was not available in paper) across the border instead of food for Confederate dollars. Texas, Hood's Brigade notwithstanding, was not that deeply set into the Southern Cause; a third of the state was in pro-Union hands throughout the war, and nearly as many Texans wore blue as gray.

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  • Pruitt
    replied
    Not all Texas Farmers were growing Cotton. They had to grow their own food. During the ACW the
    Confederate Government dunned the farmers for Corn, Wheat, Potatoes, (oats?) and other green vegetables. They also wanted Cattle and Horses. It was quite a list. In return Kirby-Smith MIGHT give some of the profit on Cotton sales (plus some consumer goods). Shoes, needles, thread and coffee was quite dear. Salt was hard to get as the Union Navy would likely destroy salt pans. It is hard to preserve meat without salt.

    Pruitt

    Leave a comment:


  • Arnold J Rimmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Surrey View Post
    What was the Texas population at the time? Having an army of 5000 doesn’t seem that huge of an ask?
    In 1836 there were probably 5,000 blacks, 30,000 Anglo-Americans, 3,470 Hispanics, and 14,200 Indians in Texas.

    The majority of the blacks were slaves. You can figure about a third of the Hispanic population was not pro-Republic.

    So a regular army of 300-600 was the most Texas could field without wrecking its economy. They did have a standing force of 200 men on and off for a total of 30 months out of 9 years, but lacking a treasury they frequently disbanded it for lack of funds.

    In 1847 a partial enumeration was made showing a population of 135,000, of whom 39,000 were slaves. Still insufficient to field an army of 5000, even if there were funds available.

    By comparison, in 1860, the population was 604,000, of which 182,000 were slaves. Possibly sufficient to field a regular military of 5000 with a peacetime economy.

    So, you are looking at 24 years minimum commitment of troops. And not incidentally, the sponsoring nation would have to be willing to send said troops to defend a new nation where slavery was legal; a key element in the Texas Revolution was Mexico's opposition to slavery. Great Britain opposed slavery and the slave trade, so would they help a slave-owning nation? Without slavery, Texas' population and economy would not have grown as rapidly as it did historically.

    As noted, Texas was a cotton state in the 1830s-60s, which meant slavery.

    Leave a comment:


  • marktwain
    replied
    Originally posted by MarkV View Post

    Wellington was firmly opposed to foreign adventures.
    Good point. this would have been , in the 1840's, a heavy investment and ownership of utilities undertaking.
    the Texas dollar would have needed propping up...

    Leave a comment:


  • MarkV
    replied
    Originally posted by marktwain View Post



    If Wellington or his successor before Peel( Wots 'is face?) had retained power, they may have done it.
    Wellington was firmly opposed to foreign adventures.

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  • Surrey
    replied
    What was the Texas population at the time? Having an army of 5000 doesn’t seem that huge of an ask?

    Leave a comment:

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