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  • #16
    Texas was getting investment from British investors. The British government preferred Texas independent. They bought the surplus grain from Texas at high price. The Germans around Fredericksburg were growing Cotton without slaves and getting out a better product. Not all Germans supported the South in the Civil War. A number were caught trying to run to Mexico and were executed. A number of Texas Refugees formed the 1st Texas Cavalry on Galveston Island. They ended up in banks' Army in Louisiana.

    Pruitt
    Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

    Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

    by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
      Texas was getting investment from British investors. The British government preferred Texas independent. They bought the surplus grain from Texas at high price. The Germans around Fredericksburg were growing Cotton without slaves and getting out a better product. Not all Germans supported the South in the Civil War. A number were caught trying to run to Mexico and were executed. A number of Texas Refugees formed the 1st Texas Cavalry on Galveston Island. They ended up in banks' Army in Louisiana.

      Pruitt
      You already said that.

      British investment was a start, but to survive Texas needed troops, forts, and the money to pay for both. In the late 1830s into the 40s its population was too low, and it had no Treasury to speak of. The Comanche held the high plains, other tibes were pressing in from the north, and Mexico intended on getting the region back once their own squabbles sorted out.

      The 'Fort Line' across central Texas was manned until at least 1880. Only an outside power could afford that.
      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

      Comment


      • #18
        The state of Texas said for years they could not afford to defend their frontier. Yet they had no problem raising Militia to remove the Cherokee and other tribes.They did raise some units during the ACW, but Confederate officials tried to transfer them out of state. I can't say how hard the Texas state government tried to raise troops. One of the reasons Texas wanted to be annexed to the US was so the US Army would defend the border with the Hostile Indians. Texas also kept trying to get the US to fund the Texas Rangers.

        Pruitt
        Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

        Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

        by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
          The state of Texas said for years they could not afford to defend their frontier. Yet they had no problem raising Militia to remove the Cherokee and other tribes.They did raise some units during the ACW, but Confederate officials tried to transfer them out of state. I can't say how hard the Texas state government tried to raise troops. One of the reasons Texas wanted to be annexed to the US was so the US Army would defend the border with the Hostile Indians. Texas also kept trying to get the US to fund the Texas Rangers.

          Pruitt
          They raised militia because the Cherokee were farmers, and said 'militia' got the farmland with crops still standing in the field.

          Keep in mind that there is a world of difference between the Texas Republic of 1836-45, and the Texas of 1861. The latter had benefited from fifteen years of Federal troops, Federal infrastructure development, and a Mexico that had lost the Mexican-American War.

          The origins of the Texas Rangers are of mounted irregulars whose chief form of pay was hides and horses seized from Indians, or stolen Mexican horses and cattle. The Republic had military forces for less than 30 months of its existence, and still owed thousands in back pay to mustered-out men when they joined the USA.

          Texas' population density was very low, and heavily concentrated in east Texas (the timber line) until the Comanche finally went under in the 1870s.

          The conflict over paying the Rangers through claims on the Federal government stems from the fact that Texas was the only Plains state who had to fight Plains tribes; all the rest remained territories until the Plains tribes were beaten.

          But without 5000+ outside troops for 25-30 years, heavy financial aid, and a major power forcing Mexico to back off, Texas could not have remained independent. Because that is exactly what it took. Much is made of the Rangers as Indian fighters, but the truth is, it was the US Army in a string of forts from the Rio Grande to the Indian Territory that held back the Comanche.

          It wasn't until after 1900 that all of west Texas established counties.
          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

          Comment


          • #20
            The movie, "The Searchers" portrays the relationship of the Texas Rangers and the US Army very well.

            "Boy watch that swinging of that big knife!"

            The Colonel walks in to find the Texas Ranger Captain getting stitches on his rear end, "Was it an arrow or a Lance?" "Neither!" says the Captain.

            Pruitt
            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
              Texas was getting investment from British investors. The British government preferred Texas independent. They bought the surplus grain from Texas at high price. The Germans around Fredericksburg were growing Cotton without slaves and getting out a better product. Not all Germans supported the South in the Civil War. A number were caught trying to run to Mexico and were executed. A number of Texas Refugees formed the 1st Texas Cavalry on Galveston Island. They ended up in Banks' Army in Louisiana. Strategically, Texas needed a rail link to El Paso through Fredericksburg and a line from Beaumont to Nacogdoches and to Marshall where it could have tied into the line going to Shreveport. Of course this may have tempted Banks into a serious effort to take Texas.

              Pruitt
              Excellent points, Pruitt!. Texas became independent during the 'Little Britain' era of Empire ( payment of the Napoleonic war debt, etc.). A Texas railroad needed to get inland from the coastal cattle plains to reach profitable trade, dredge the sand ut of river harbors, etc., , and this took a lot of cash.

              If Wellington or his successor before Peel( Wots 'is face?) had retained power, they may have done it.
              The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

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              • #22
                What was the Texas population at the time? Having an army of 5000 doesn’t seem that huge of an ask?
                "To be free is better than to be unfree - always."

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by marktwain View Post



                  If Wellington or his successor before Peel( Wots 'is face?) had retained power, they may have done it.
                  Wellington was firmly opposed to foreign adventures.
                  Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe (H G Wells)
                  Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens (Friedrich von Schiller)

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by MarkV View Post

                    Wellington was firmly opposed to foreign adventures.
                    Good point. this would have been , in the 1840's, a heavy investment and ownership of utilities undertaking.
                    the Texas dollar would have needed propping up...
                    The trout who swims against the current gets the most oxygen..

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Surrey View Post
                      What was the Texas population at the time? Having an army of 5000 doesn’t seem that huge of an ask?
                      In 1836 there were probably 5,000 blacks, 30,000 Anglo-Americans, 3,470 Hispanics, and 14,200 Indians in Texas.

                      The majority of the blacks were slaves. You can figure about a third of the Hispanic population was not pro-Republic.

                      So a regular army of 300-600 was the most Texas could field without wrecking its economy. They did have a standing force of 200 men on and off for a total of 30 months out of 9 years, but lacking a treasury they frequently disbanded it for lack of funds.

                      In 1847 a partial enumeration was made showing a population of 135,000, of whom 39,000 were slaves. Still insufficient to field an army of 5000, even if there were funds available.

                      By comparison, in 1860, the population was 604,000, of which 182,000 were slaves. Possibly sufficient to field a regular military of 5000 with a peacetime economy.

                      So, you are looking at 24 years minimum commitment of troops. And not incidentally, the sponsoring nation would have to be willing to send said troops to defend a new nation where slavery was legal; a key element in the Texas Revolution was Mexico's opposition to slavery. Great Britain opposed slavery and the slave trade, so would they help a slave-owning nation? Without slavery, Texas' population and economy would not have grown as rapidly as it did historically.

                      As noted, Texas was a cotton state in the 1830s-60s, which meant slavery.
                      Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Not all Texas Farmers were growing Cotton. They had to grow their own food. During the ACW the
                        Confederate Government dunned the farmers for Corn, Wheat, Potatoes, (oats?) and other green vegetables. They also wanted Cattle and Horses. It was quite a list. In return Kirby-Smith MIGHT give some of the profit on Cotton sales (plus some consumer goods). Shoes, needles, thread and coffee was quite dear. Salt was hard to get as the Union Navy would likely destroy salt pans. It is hard to preserve meat without salt.

                        Pruitt
                        Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                        Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                        by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Pruitt View Post
                          Not all Texas Farmers were growing Cotton. They had to grow their own food. During the ACW the
                          Confederate Government dunned the farmers for Corn, Wheat, Potatoes, (oats?) and other green vegetables. They also wanted Cattle and Horses. It was quite a list. In return Kirby-Smith MIGHT give some of the profit on Cotton sales (plus some consumer goods). Shoes, needles, thread and coffee was quite dear. Salt was hard to get as the Union Navy would likely destroy salt pans. It is hard to preserve meat without salt.

                          Pruitt
                          You keep focusing on a period nearly twenty years after Texas joined the Union. The conditions then had nothing in comparison with the conditions Republic faced.

                          And of course not all farmers were growing cotton, but a lot were. Cotton and to a lesser extent timber was king in Texas before the war, followed by beef and horses after, then oil.

                          During the ACW Texas was the main conduit for manufactured goods delivered to Mexican ports and brought overland to the Confederacy, until Vicksburg fell. Even after that there was some smuggling.

                          What the Confederate gov't wanted, and what they got, were two different things. Cotton could be sold for hard cash (the peso was 1:1 with the US dollar in this period, and was not available in paper) across the border instead of food for Confederate dollars. Texas, Hood's Brigade notwithstanding, was not that deeply set into the Southern Cause; a third of the state was in pro-Union hands throughout the war, and nearly as many Texans wore blue as gray.
                          Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Arnold J Rimmer View Post
                            Texas, Hood's Brigade notwithstanding, was not that deeply set into the Southern Cause; a third of the state was in pro-Union hands throughout the war, and nearly as many Texans wore blue as gray.
                            Not so much. Texas sent a Brigade to Northern Virginia and a Couple of Infantry Brigades to the Army of the Tennessee. The rest of Texan troops fought West of the Mississippi. Even these were mostly Cavalry. The Texans did dismount several Cavalry regiments and a couple of brigades of Cavalry. Walker's Texas Infantry Division (The Greyhounds) fought in Arkansas and Louisiana. One Texas Cavalry Regiment (39th) did an atrocity in Arkansas with Indian units (Poison Grove in Arkansas).

                            I can't think of where you think the Union Troops were at in Texas. The Union took Galveston and then lost it to Colonel Green's Brigade of Cavalry. There was a Union raid from Brownsville that reached Laredo before going back. There were some deserters in the Big Thicket but Texas Cavalry kept running them into Louisiana. Most of the Germans that were Unionist ran for Mexico early. Some were caught and executed. If you did not want to wear gray in Texas you had to hide in the Woods or on the Indian Frontier. The Apache and Comanche did not like them either. If you wanted to enlist in the Union Army you had to go to Mexico (or Galveston before it was taken back). I don't see where you get that nearly as many Texans wore Blue as Gray, unless the Texans were looting a Union supply train.

                            Pruitt
                            Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                            Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                            by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Pruitt View Post

                              Not so much. Texas sent a Brigade to Northern Virginia and a Couple of Infantry Brigades to the Army of the Tennessee. The rest of Texan troops fought West of the Mississippi. Even these were mostly Cavalry. The Texans did dismount several Cavalry regiments and a couple of brigades of Cavalry. Walker's Texas Infantry Division (The Greyhounds) fought in Arkansas and Louisiana. One Texas Cavalry Regiment (39th) did an atrocity in Arkansas with Indian units (Poison Grove in Arkansas).

                              I can't think of where you think the Union Troops were at in Texas. The Union took Galveston and then lost it to Colonel Green's Brigade of Cavalry. There was a Union raid from Brownsville that reached Laredo before going back. There were some deserters in the Big Thicket but Texas Cavalry kept running them into Louisiana. Most of the Germans that were Unionist ran for Mexico early. Some were caught and executed. If you did not want to wear gray in Texas you had to hide in the Woods or on the Indian Frontier. The Apache and Comanche did not like them either. If you wanted to enlist in the Union Army you had to go to Mexico (or Galveston before it was taken back). I don't see where you get that nearly as many Texans wore Blue as Gray, unless the Texans were looting a Union supply train.

                              Pruitt
                              They didn't fight in Texas.

                              There are memorials to Texans who served in the Union all over Texas. Only one unit was titled as a Texas regiment; the rest were individual fillers.

                              As to the Big Thicket, it wasn't the pro-Union holdouts who were running...

                              But you still haven't answered why you're still talking about the Civil War in a thread about an independent Texas.
                              Any man can hold his place when the bands play and women throw flowers; it is when the enemy presses close and metal shears through the ranks that one can acertain which are soldiers, and which are not.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I don't have the time to search but I am only aware of the 1st Texas Cavalry (Union). Just goes to show that Texans had to leave to serve in the Union Army. You are aware that a number of Rebel Prisoners were recruited to fight Indians? That could account for some of your "fillers". Some Confederate deserters enlisted in the New England regiments in Louisiana. If they were captured and recognized they were hung. I have a book put away written by a Texan that tried to dodge the Draft in the Big Thicket and had to run to the woods along the upper Calcasieu River. There the Confederate Cavalry made him run for Union lines. He enlisted as an officer in a Louisiana Union Cavalry Regiment and participated in the Red River Campaign. He ended the war with a job in the Freedman's Bureau.

                                Pruitt
                                Pruitt, you are truly an expert! Kelt06

                                Have you been struck by the jawbone of an ASS lately?

                                by Khepesh "This is the logic of Pruitt"

                                Comment

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