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Eastern Civilization? What if?

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  • #16
    With Persia controlling the Balkan Peninsula as well as syria, Egypt, etc. etc the Punic waers would have been quite different. Persia could have let Rome and Carthage fight it out and then taken over the weakened victor.

    Historically, Persia did sent troops to sicily, if Greece were gone, then Sicily might also have fallen--cramping rome's style.

    Some of you are trying to put a small Rome, maybe the entire Italian peninsula at best, against an empire that stretches from Sicily to India.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by grognard View Post
      With Persia controlling the Balkan Peninsula as well as syria, Egypt, etc. etc the Punic waers would have been quite different. Persia could have let Rome and Carthage fight it out and then taken over the weakened victor.

      Historically, Persia did sent troops to Sicily, if Greece were gone, then Sicily might also have fallen--cramping rome's style.

      Some of you are trying to put a small Rome, maybe the entire Italian peninsula at best, against an empire that stretches from Sicily to India.
      I fail to see why the Punic war would be different unless Sicily was Persian. In that case Rome might well have fought Persia fist instead of the Carthage. But unless Carthage allied itself with Rome there is no reason to assume Rome would lose. As the small Greek army showed the Empire of Persia armies were not very good. That is why Persia hired Greeks so much.

      The date of any conflict between Rome and Persia could make a big difference, however remember a small Greece beat Persia, why should a small Rome be less able.
      FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

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      • #18
        Rome didn't have much of a navy for one thing--also, Rome was never able to beat Persia later on--like when Crassus tried.

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        • #19
          Rome did not have a Navy when the war with Carthage began either but they did a sea invasion of Carthage's africa at the end first punic war.

          Ok I will make my statements more accurate. Rome would be unlikely to conquer Persia (as history shows us). However like the Greeks who did not conquer Persia also the Romans could have been able to overcome the vying armies of Persia forcing Persia to look elsewhere.
          FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

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          • #20
            Agreed that Persia might have found Rome a tough nut to crack. But a rome weakened after fighting Carthage would not have been strong enough to hold off anyone else.

            How about a Persian/Carthaginian alliance to take out Rome--Hannibal at the gates and the Persiians supplying seige engines and extra manpower.

            Of course Carthage and Rome might have allied to stop Persia--which I admit is a separate what-if.

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            • #21
              intersting.

              well, one has to assume that:

              1. persian empire would eventually have collapsed as it did many times before and after due to internal bickerings, internal strife, etc.

              2. democracy and most things greek were lost to most during the middle ages anyways and european civilization from 400AD to the renaissance was not really a "classical greek paradie".

              I see a few implications though:

              - no greek victory over Persia means Persian empire lasts longer and the middle east is a bit more unite

              - perhaps the greek ideas would have been studied by the conquerrors and kept safer in persia's libraries, and who knows, perhaps democracy and renaissance would have had their rebirth and happened there

              - no eastern roman empire, this no endless wars between byzantium and the Sassanids (the heirs to Persia), thus no weakness, thus no islam

              ... many implications, but ideas can come back at any given time later.
              "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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              • #22
                Democracies can turn into Empires. I cannot think of any empire that turned into a democracy.
                FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by PatBC View Post
                  Democracies can turn into Empires. I cannot think of any empire that turned into a democracy.
                  France, Britain, Germany, etc. almost all of them, really. Not perfect and not pacifists but democracies.
                  Last edited by Cyberknight; 03 Mar 08, 17:07.
                  "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                  George Mason
                  Co-author of the Second Amendment
                  during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

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                  • #24
                    None of those became democracies while they were empires
                    FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by PatBC View Post
                      None of those became democracies while they were empires
                      Agreed. They all did it the hard way. Revolution or civil war.

                      Rome went from Republic, although not in the modern sense, to an Empire, so nothing is a linear progression either.
                      "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
                      George Mason
                      Co-author of the Second Amendment
                      during Virginia’s Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

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