Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Eastern Civilization? What if?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Eastern Civilization? What if?

    What would have happened if the Greeks hadn't been able to overcome the vying armies of Persia? Would our 'Western' Civilization look to Persia as the true source of civilization and not classical Greece? I mean...the Romans loved the Greeks so much that there was extensive cultural borrowing in Religion, theatre, literature and military gestalt...(afterall, as Suetonius reports in chapter seven of Lives of the Twelve Caesars that: As quaster, it fell to him by lot to execute his office in Farther Spain. One day, as he was riding the circuit of this province at the command of the Praetor, Antistius Vetus, for the administration of justice, he came to Gades: where, beholding a statue of Alexander the Great in the Temple of Hercules, he sighed deeply, as if burdened with his own slothfulness in that he had performed no memorable act in his thirty three years, what time Alexander had required to conquer the whole world. Presently, therefore, he sued earnestly for his discharge and licence to depart, that he might take the first opportunity that should present itself in the city [Rome] for entering upon great enterprises.... translated from the latin by H.M. Bird.)

    From that we can see how much the Greeks meant to the one Roman who has been emulated more than any other in the history of Western Europe. If there were no Greek state....would there be a Rome at all and if there weren't a Rome as knew it, then what?

    What implications does this have for our outlook on cultural origins and practices? Do we still have a festival on the 25th of December to celebrate Mithras?


    I just wanted to hear what you've got to say about it.

    Trench Rat

  • #2
    It depends (lLOL doesn't it always).

    First good portion of the Persian army was Greek. The Persian Empire collapsed 330 BC. Greeks could still been the dominate culture that survives from the collapse. Even if that is not case Greek science and philosophy may survive in Sicily and western Mediterranean. So that once the Persian Empire collapses everything proceeds the same.

    I think the importance of Greece as a source is the science and philosophy they left us, not their civilization or history.
    FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

    Comment


    • #3
      No democracy, with the Greeks conquered, who suddenly decides to start voting and why? Greeks fall in 490-480 B.C.
      The Persian Empire collapsed in 330 because of Alexander of Macedon. No way Macedon gets powerful enough to take on Persia if Persia controls Greece.

      Comment


      • #4
        'Voting' or 'Democracy' as the anceint Greeks practiced it was derived directly from the common practice in ancient warrior sociotys. The various warband or clan leaders hashing out critical policy decsions and selection of the 'king' with various methods for determining majority choice. Those of the ancient city states who had voting rights were a urban adaptation of the old clan councils of the preliterate cultures.

        In modern European history (post Dark Ages) Greek democracy was held up by those opposed to the theory of absolute monarchy & 'Divine Right' of kings as the ideal & earliest of "civilized" government. There could have been other examples of democratic or republica style systems held up, but the Greeks and Romans were the only ancient examples that were well enough known to the Medival & Rennisance Europeans. So, parliments, fyrds, diets, ect... would have developed in Europe. The difference would have been their defenders would develop other examples and historical myths to support their arguments.

        Comment


        • #5
          I'm still curious to ask whether or not the Italian Peninsula would have devolped had there not been Greece not under Persian influence. Would there still be colonies on Sicily or at Naples? I mean, weren't those the product of individual city states within Greece? But as I said, without Greece, what sort of animal does Rome become?

          Comment


          • #6
            The Greek expansion and colonys precede the Persian wars.

            The Romans adopted whatever they could from many cultures. If Persian rulers had governed Asia minor, Egypt, and the Balkans instead of Greece then their literature and technology would have been asorbed into Roman to a much larger degree than it was, due to greater contact.

            Greek culture and technology was already well established, so it would have been preserved, whoever ruled Greece when the Romans begain their imperial era. Contact with Greek culture went back to Romes earliest days.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by grognard View Post
              No democracy, with the Greeks conquered, who suddenly decides to start voting and why? Greeks fall in 490-480 B.C.
              The Persian Empire collapsed in 330 because of Alexander of Macedon. No way Macedon gets powerful enough to take on Persia if Persia controls Greece.
              The Greeks had representative democracy in Athens since 594 BC.

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solon
              FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by PatBC View Post
                The Greeks had representative democracy in Athens since 594 BC.

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solon
                The point is the Greeks were the only ones to utilized democracy beyond some groups electing a war leader--elections were not constant in other societys.

                As for Greek colonies, the Persians would have kept going, as they tried to do historically, and taken the Greek colonies e.g. Syracuse.

                Rome may have developed anyway, but it may have been overrun by a Persian/Greek splinter state or West mediterranean empire.

                Comment


                • #9
                  There was Democracies in Ancient India and pre-columbian Americas.
                  FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by grognard View Post
                    The point is the Greeks were the only ones to utilized democracy beyond some groups electing a war leader--elections were not constant in other societys.

                    As for Greek colonies, the Persians would have kept going, as they tried to do historically, and taken the Greek colonies e.g. Syracuse.

                    Rome may have developed anyway, but it may have been overrun by a Persian/Greek splinter state or West mediterranean empire.
                    Greeks have a longer history without democracy then they do with democracy.
                    FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Given the point of the what-if, how does anyone get in contact with non-Med civilazations? How many what-ifs are we dealing with at one time?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        To the original question the most important contribution of Greek civilization is not democracy as that existed in other places, It is the development of methods of thinking and investigation that lead to scientific method. If that had been lost the world would be much different. I do not think Persia would have snuffed it out. As long as those works were written in Greek that is who we would look at as the source of our civilization.

                        As to democracy I was just showing that it appeared in other places with out Greek influence therefore the survival of Greece is not important to the survival of democracy.
                        FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TrenchRat View Post
                          I'm still curious to ask whether or not the Italian Peninsula would have developed had there not been Greece not under Persian influence. Would there still be colonies on Sicily or at Naples? I mean, weren't those the product of individual city states within Greece? But as I said, without Greece, what sort of animal does Rome become?
                          Rome and the Italian peninsula history also pre-date the Greek-Persian wars therefore unless Italy was also conquered it is possible Roman would developed the same. The Roman republic existed since 509 BC. If Greece was overrun it possible many more Greeks would end up in Rome. Etruscan civilization dates from 1200 BC.
                          FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            To look at this from a slightly different angle:

                            The Persians & modern Iranians regard Alexanders conquest as something of a disaster. Their view is that the Greek era in Persia & Mesopotamia & adjacent areas caused a large scale disruption and loss of the existing civilizations achivements.

                            In the basic WI here the frontier of Greek civilization is much firther west, and the Persian/Middleastern civilizations the Romans encounter have developed quite differently than if overlaid by Greek rule & culture. Ths likely influences Roman culture in different ways. it also may cause Rome to not expand as far to the east and develop in other ways in Europe or Africa.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think Greek influence would still be there on Roman culture unless Persia and Rome met before the second century BC. Without King Phillip the Romans might have expanded different but Rome did not get along with any neighbors and a Persian Empire on the border would likely lead to conflict also. The only real question is when, and would the Roman military science have developed enough to take Persia. After the the Punic wars I think it was developed enough to handle Persia.
                              FoxNEWS "The World is unfair and we are running scared"

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X