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What if the Soviet Union stayed as an ally of Germany

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  • Emil_G
    replied
    Originally posted by The Purist View Post
    Those nefarious Poles!!!!

    Allied with both France and Germany!!!

    Crafty devils.
    Yeap. See how silly it looks when you think a non-aggression pact = alliance?

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  • The Purist
    replied
    Originally posted by Emil_G View Post
    Of course not. That's why there are alliances and then there are non-aggression pacts. The USSR also had non-aggression pacts with Japan and Poland. Germany also had a non-aggression pact with Poland.
    Those nefarious Poles!!!!

    Allied with both France and Germany!!!

    Crafty devils.

    Leave a comment:


  • Emil_G
    replied
    Originally posted by Paul Mann III View Post
    Forgive the expression, but that sounds like "Lawyer Ball" to me. If two Countries agree not to War, essentially, isn't that an "alliance?"
    Of course not. That's why there are alliances and then there are non-aggression pacts. The USSR also had non-aggression pacts with Japan and Poland. Germany also had a non-aggression pact with Poland.

    Just because you agree "not to fight (for now)" that' doesn't mean you are allied with the guy. Another way of paraphrasing it would be "Ok we will fight eventually but lets not fight right now and fight when both of us are ready".

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  • Paul Mann III
    replied
    It's all in the fine print, I guess?

    Originally posted by Rambow View Post
    Non-aggression pact itself doesn't mean military alliance. Only Soviet-German co-operation in Poland can be considered as sort of alliance. But Soviets did all to avoid such definition.
    Forgive the expression, but that sounds like "Lawyer Ball" to me. If two Countries agree not to War, essentially, isn't that an "alliance?"

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  • Rambow
    replied
    Non-aggression pact itself doesn't mean military alliance. Only Soviet-German co-operation in Poland can be considered as sort of alliance. But Soviets did all to avoid such definition.

    Leave a comment:


  • Paul Mann III
    replied
    Originally posted by Emil_G View Post
    They were never allied to begin with. For the million and a half'th time!
    So, what were the parameters of the Molotov Von Ribbontrop Act then? I was under the impression it was a pretty clear non-aggression pact.

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  • Rambow
    replied
    Emil is right: 'were not in a war' sounds better IMO. And both of them were just waiting for a moment to attack. Nazi much more wanted "Slavic-Tatar Hydra with Jewish heads" than "Anglo-Saxon Aryans" as an enemy. Soviets supposed UK as more possible enemy by 1940 but they had never forgotten how Hitler dealt with German communists and helped Franco in Spain. If the war did not start in June of 1941 it would begin soon anyway.
    Last edited by Rambow; 16 Feb 08, 03:28.

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  • Emil_G
    replied
    They were never allied to begin with. For the million and a half'th time!

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  • The Exorcist
    replied
    I think we are looking at this the wrong way.

    What could have caused Nazi Germany and the USSR to work together?
    There would have to have been a much greater threat out there... and I DON"T mean space aliens!

    (1) What if George Washington had been killed in New YOrk in 1776, and the Revolution failed? With all of North America under thier control, the British Empire would have been the ultimate 800-pound Gorilla by 1940.

    (2) What if Mao had been shot and Chaing assasinated, and Japan assumed total control of China in 1935, and re-organized that country in a humane, more Roman type of administration than they actualy did?

    (3) What if the US had a President that held Hitler and Stalin equaly to blame for Poland, and started a massive military build-up in September of 1939? Imagine US Marines, pilots and Grunts, arriving in Finland in time for Christmas that same year!

    Do you think any one of those might have done it?

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  • Rynnäkkökivääri
    replied
    If you know history, you'd have seen it would have fallen apart. Russia and Germany have a history of war with each other, 3 times as far as I know. Once were the Teutonic Knights got their asses handed to them by Nevsky, and then both world wars. And beyond that, Hitler hated communists. It would have never lasted long.

    However, if they did stay together, then they'd dominate the world, and then they'd fight over control, and i think the Soviets would have won that.

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  • 2nd Rangers
    replied
    Learn to Speak German....not really

    Originally posted by GA_Thrawn35 View Post
    When Russia became an ally of Germany and then in 1942 the Germans invaded Russia, what if Russia stayed as an ally of Germany. Would the British have been kicked out of Africa? Would China have been defeated by the Japanese and the Russians? What would have happened on the Western front?
    If the Soviet Union and Germany remained allied the results are very predictable. We lose Europe. Britain would have been forced to capitulate sooner or later. Without Britain, there would be no way to liberate Europe. We would have to sit back and wait for an opportunity to exploit. That might take years.
    The US and Canada would have been "safe" for a few years until someone won the race to build an intercontinental missile. We would have the bomb first but might not have the delivery system to use it for several years.

    But this is more likely:

    The Austrian lance corporal was hell bent to destroy communism and gain Eastern territory. Sooner or later the Soviets and the Germans would be engaged in a death struggle. America, Canada and possibly a British government in exile would be forced to wait for someone to emerge as the winner. The war might go on until 1955.

    At some point ,the United States and her allies probably win back England from Germany but a triumphant Soviet Union might occupy the rest of Europe. They're not going to give it back after the death of 30 million soldiers. Both sides watch each other intently until 2005 when the Communist system implodes and Russia establishes a constitutional democracy.

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  • Daemon of Decay
    replied
    Originally posted by GA_Thrawn35 View Post
    When Russia became an ally of Germany and then in 1942 the Germans invaded Russia, what if Russia stayed as an ally of Germany. Would the British have been kicked out of Africa? Would China have been defeated by the Japanese and the Russians? What would have happened on the Western front?
    Ah, the 'Unholy Alliance' scenario.

    Really, economic cooperation between the Soviet Union and Germany is the only real 'alliance' that the two nations had. The USSR both gave Germany large amounts of raw resources and allowed resources from Asia to travel through their borders in exchange for advanced industrial technology.

    One of the things most people seem to assume when considering German-Soviet relations is that Stalin was preparing to invade Germany himself, but he wasn't. He, like the western democracies, was hoping to appease Hitler with a working agreement between the two nations until the Soviet Union was strong enough to stand on their own. His shipments to Germany were always right on schedule (even days before Barbarossa) while the German ones were much more erratic.

    So while I don't think that Soviet and Nazi armies would be working together to invade India for example, there would definitely have been the posibility for Germany to have used the Soviet Union to meet it's industrial needs for raw materials while working on dealing with the UK and (later) the US.

    However, the biggest obstacle to this scenario is, as usual, the H-man himself. Hitler was nucking futs, and he both despised the communists and desired the rich land of the Ukraine.

    The only way for those two nations to work together (at least for longer) is to either change or kill Hitler. Otherwise, they would still have gone to war.

    The H-man? What is he, an aryan rapper?

    Leave a comment:


  • What if the Soviet Union stayed as an ally of Germany

    When Russia became an ally of Germany and then in 1942 the Germans invaded Russia, what if Russia stayed as an ally of Germany. Would the British have been kicked out of Africa? Would China have been defeated by the Japanese and the Russians? What would have happened on the Western front?

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