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South wins Civil War

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  • South wins Civil War

    There were times in the War Between the States that it is was posable that if the leaders in the South had done some things they could have won the war. Lee could have won Gettysburg easily had his generals not failed to do there jobs, had that happend the unpopular war would have come to an end just because of the pressure on Linclone. A smaller possibility is Sherman gets stopped but that would have taken a miracle. I wonder what the world wide reprocusions would have been and how the continent would have been divided.

  • #2
    had Lee won gettysburg, most of the european nations would have backed the south, because that was their main source of cotton. so the south could have won the war with the win at gettysburg, because they would have got money, supplies, and troops, fresh troops from europe.
    Hell was full, so I came back.


    • #3
      I disagree with Rommel's statement that the south would have gained european support if Lee had pulled it off at Gettysburg. France never really considered recognizing the south, nor did Prussia who was gearing up for a continental showdown with the French. Russia had already decided to stay friendly to the Union and Italy was otherwise occupied with problems of her own.
      Yes, the Brits did favor the south at the beginning of the war, but they never really seriously helped the Confederacy other than by building a few of their warships and blockade runners. After Antietam, the year before Gettysburg, the British government no longer thought the South had chance at winning, so subsequently they wrote the rebels off. England's proactive stand against slavery would have also prevented England from actually sending troops to fight for a slave owning nation. Also, the Confederacy's obsession with 'King Cotton' diplomacy completely failed!! The nations of Europe had other sources for cotton, and the South's withholding of cotton early in the conflict from London exchanges forced England to developed its Egyptian and Indian cotton markets during the course of the Civil War.


      • #4
        Best chance was after the Seven Days. RE Lee showed that ANV could defend its soil and bloodied McCelland's nose. Staying on the defensive showed Europe that the North was the aggressor.

        Davis missed the oppertunity to foster this vision to the European powers, then getting their support.

        After Sharpsburg, it was too late....


        • #5
          I think that had Lee won At Gettysburg you may not have needed Europe at all. The war was unpopular in much of the north(espically major cities like New York) had Lee pulled off the capture of a northern city Lincoln may have not have had a choice but to end the thing.


          • #6
            South wins Civil War

            If Stonewall Jackson had not been killed at Chancellorsville the Battle of Gettysburg would have been a Southern victory. He would have occupied Culp's Hill on July 1, 1863 and the blood bath would have been on the Federal side and not the Confederate. This great victory balances the loss of Vicksburg and causes terrible social unrest in the North to the point that draft riots cannot be supressed. Late 1863 and 1864 are a stalemate in the field. Lincoln loses reelection to McClellan and the North sues for peace........It could have happened.
            Lance W.

            Peace through superior firepower.


            • #7
              First of all, what if is a very powerful question. So far i see most said what if the south did this or that. Since we are talking about what ifs, what if the north had appointed Grant the commander general of the entire north from the get go? The south would not have even come close to winning then. It took the north many trials before they found a competent commanding general, which in turn gave the south many victories to boost their morale. Had the north appoint Grant in the first place, they would most likely have squash the whole thing from the get go.


              • #8
                If the south had won the most likely result is thta there would have been a line drawn across the USA separateing the north from the south.

                They would have been 2 separate countries.

                Then some southern states would have chosen to re-join the north for economic reasons.

                The south would have trouble trading with the world due to the slavery issue.

                It is likely that all the southern states would re-join the north but it could have taken 100 years.

                After the fall of Vicksburg, the city did not celebrate the 4th of July again until 1944. The old feelings lingered.


                • #9
                  If Jackson's at Gettysburg an occupies Culp's Hill on the first day the Union doesn't stand and fight at Gettysburg but withdraws their two battered Corps to the Pipe Creek line, puts them in reserve, and stands ready to repulse Lee with 5 more fresh Corps in a prepared defensive line. The only reason the big fight was at Gettysburg was because the Union ended day one holding that high ground. Losing the high ground just makes Gettysburg a minor battle and the major showdown moves somewhere else.
                  Texas, where we have the death penalty and aren't afraid to use it!


                  • #10
                    If the South had of won

                    I agree with Lance, if Jackson hadn't caught pneumonia after having his arm amputated Lee would have had him by his side for a major invasion of the North. The war war would have ended sooner with a much doifferent result. I don't think it is coincidence that the Confederate army began to loose ground after Chancelorsville.

                    Grant wasn't any better of a general than the others except that he had determination where the others lacked it, and he was given commmand of a force much larger and better supplied than the confederates.

                    As far as the results if the South had one, Harry Turtledove has a series of books depicting what probably would have been the reality of this. If not actively at war with each other the two nations would have been involved in a cold war.


                    • #11
                      I think it is VERY unlikely that the South could ever possibly win.

                      It isnt matter of Jackson dying or Lee's skill.
                      Its a matter of WILL.

                      By 1863, alot of Southern People were serving in the UNION
                      army. The South was provoked into war by certain hotheads,
                      who didnt really care about reality. Once the TRUE nature of
                      the war became obvious, the 'common' people in the South
                      VERY rapidly lost their enthusiasm. Just read some accounts
                      of Forrest's rides thru Tennesee and Georgia and Mississippi.

                      He was NOT met with overwhelming happiness. His habit of drafting all men at gun point had something to do with it.


                      • #12
                        What if?

                        Gettsyburg, Antitem, Vicksburg,Cold Harbour it doesnt matter! the South never could have won the war due to economics, reguardless of what general was in charge of what army. by 1863 the south's economy was on it's rears and there was no turning it around. they had zero industry compared to the north. they had 14 different rail road gauges no train could travel from one state to another in the south without changing all cargo from one train to another,lots of man power and time consuming that is! There no other countries will to help them except mexico who could only invade slave states at that time. Lee could have whipped up on us northern boys good at Gettysburg but i think that would have just prolonged the war with the same outcome.


                        • #13
                          Irreverent and Feldjaeger have excellent points!! There is no possible way that the South could have won the Civil War. No matter how you analyze the situation (economically, diplomatically, militarily, or psychologically), once Lincoln decided that the Union would stay together no matter what, it was over for the South. Feldjaeger is right, every Southern state had multiple units of men who VOLUNTEERED to fight for the Union and huge expanses of Southern territory (like western NC, eastern TN and KY, northern GA, and parts of TX, OK, and MO, not to mention the newly created WV) were completely controlled by or at least disputed over by local pro-Northern forces.
                          Some Southerners, and I am speaking as one here, have a hard time dealing with the idea that the South lost the war. Few want to get beyond the romantic ‘moonlight and magnolias’ vision they have of the South. I see this attitude nearly everyday in my classroom and when I participate in CW reenactments. There are still people who think that they can some how refight the war to change its outcome or to better justify it in their own minds. I am not accusing anyone of this here, but this thread started with the question about the possibility of European support for the Confederacy.


                          • #14
                            South wins ACW

                            If I choose to dismiss the woeful state of the Confederate industry and infrastructure, other bars to victory present themselves. As the war dragged on, not a few Southerners wondered (if only to themselves) whether secession had been a good idea. Also, the South had a smaller population base and progressively more soldiers wanted to return to their farms and families.

                            In my opinion, even had the Confederates won Gettysburg, it may well have been a Pyrrhic victory. Most of the Confederate soldiers were spent, in such a poor state that they nearly rioted when it was verified that there was a collection of shoes at Gettysburg. It is quite possible that at any given moment, especially after setbacks such as Pickett's Charge, the Rebels may have mutinied.
                            Mens Est Clavis Victoriae
                            (The Mind Is The Key To Victory)


                            • #15
                              what if ?

                              The key here wasn't Gettysburg but Antietam a year earlier. If Lee 's general orders detailing his plans had never been lost, then it was quie possible that he would have defeated McClellan and threatened Washington.

                              The European states would have seen that the Confederacy could project power and defeat the Yanks on their own soil, that they would have forced the Lincoln Administration to let the Confederacy live, and the two countries would now exist.
                              It is probable that England, being the dominant sea power as well as having a standing force in Canada would be considered by Lincoln. The English in my oppinion would use political influence instead of military force. But the threat of it would give the Administration cause to worry.

                              If the Brits had used force, the Royal Navy could have broken the Naval blockade of the South or put a blockade inplace around Northern ports. The Royal Army with Canadian troops, would threaten the North East, and causing Lincoln to shift forces from the South to protect the Northern borders, a situation that would not allow the North to continue actions against the CSA.

                              Thus the war would have ended with the CSA the victors.

                              As it was Mc Clellan did recover the lost orders and forced Lee to abandon his first invasion and retreat back to Virginia and allowing the war to go on.

                              Also, even if Lee had won at Gettysburg, what many forget is that Vicksburg fell the next day which allowed the Union forces to cut the CSA in half seperating Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas from the rest of the CSA thus cutting off much of the supplies that were available to the CSA. Add to the fact that the blockade was begining to bite hard into the Southern economy and that much of the Eastern Seaboard was under Northern control ( Norfolk -Hampton Roads was occupied by the Army of the James, Port Royal, SC was also under control and other parts of Ga and NC were being sealed off as well )

                              So looking at the overall picture, the Confederacy's best chances was in 1862- by the summer of 1863 the tide was turning as the Union Forces were pushing the CSA out of Tenessee, and Kentucky.

                              I also recommned the following books by Harry Turtledove :

                              So Few Remain: a novel of the Second American Civil War.

                              The Great War: American Front - WWI with the CSA allied with France and England against Germany, Austria and USA

                              The Great War: Walk In Hell

                              Te Great War: Breakthroughs - The end of WWI.

                              He is following this series up with another trio of books detailing the post war period and the rise of a Nazi/Hitler type party and leader in the CSA.


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