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A Divided America in 1860 (or so)

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  • A Divided America in 1860 (or so)

    Let's really get out far on the limb here.

    What if the North had allowed the South to secede? Moreover, what if there were more secessions? It has been argued that were the South to be successful, there may be other secessions from the US so let's explore that.

    Let us say for the purposes of discussion that the US split into four nations peacefully.
    • The United States (generally in what is now the northeast across to Minnesota and down to Kansas and Maryland)
    • The Confederacy (11 or 13 states, as you prefer -- I don't see how it makes a difference here)
    • The Pacific Nation* (California, Oregon, Washington) and
    • Deseret (the Mormon State encompassing Utah, northern Arizona, Nevada, and Idaho)

    What about the middle territories (Colorado, for example)?
    And more importantly, what is the impact on the world?
    What's the future for these four nations?

    *Extra points for a good name for this country.
    Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
    Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


    "Never pet a burning dog."

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  • #2
    Results?

    Economic ineffciencys.

    Petty wars between the various states.

    Less robust insdustrial development.

    Railroad construction is slowed by national boundarys.

    20th Century does not become the 'US' or 'American Century.

    If a nation of slave holding states survives to the early 20th Century then it is ripe for revolution as the white 'redneck'small farmers and town tradesmen are driven into poverty by the regressive economic policys of landed plantation gentry.

    Mexico attempts to regain the Lost Territorys.

    Federalists may make attempts to reunite parts or all of this. Only a extremly skilled and charismatic politician would have any chance of sucess. However in the mid to late 20th Century some sort of economic union or North American Common market might emerge.

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    • #3
      Deseret would have stayed with the US, since the Church's position is that the constitution is a divinely inspired document.

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      • #4
        The 4 nations would not, in my estimation, cooperated with each other to any beneficial degree to create the Super Power status the United States attained.

        World War II probably would have turned out much differently for this part of the continent.

        I'd be living in Deseret with my 7 wives.
        http://www.militarywargaming.com

        "The Golden Rule of War, Speed - Simplicity - Boldness" -- General George S. Patton, Jr

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        • #5
          The precious metals and mineral wealth of the West would have been lost to the country as a whole, along with other much needed natural resources. Lack of population for defense coupled with the need for these items, would have led to invasions of Idaho, Montana, Colorado etc.. The same needs would become a cataylst for more disruption over the Western Oil fields by the 20th Century.
          An interesting question might be "who invades whom?"
          Last edited by holly6; 29 Dec 07, 14:57.
          My Avatar: Ivan W. Henderson Gunner/navigator B-25-26. 117 combat missions. Both Theaters. 11 confirmed kills. DSC.

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          • #6
            WW2? How about WW1?

            Prior to 1914, England and France were getting thier explosives from Germany. After that, they had to get those and other chemicals from the US.

            No US, no unified trade agreement. All sorts of things could have happened, including a trade embargo.

            Whoops!
            "Why is the Rum gone?"

            -Captain Jack

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            • #7
              How bout we call them the Dis-united States of America? ;-)
              You can send my bonus points via rep...
              Just like children sleeping, we can dream this night away... ~NY

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Lweber1978 View Post
                How bout we call them the Dis-united States of America? ;-)
                You can send my bonus points via rep...
                I'll mail them -- Probably best if you go stand by the mailbox until they arrive.
                Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                "Never pet a burning dog."

                RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Whiterook View Post
                  The 4 nations would not, in my estimation, cooperated with each other to any beneficial degree to create the Super Power status the United States attained.
                  Altho' I agree in general, I suspect the Pacific Nation and Deseret would have reached some sort of arrangement so that Deseret could do trade. After all, there were a lot of LDS folks in California.

                  Now that I'm retired, I guess I'd be down here in Virginia, living on my plantation.
                  Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                  Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                  "Never pet a burning dog."

                  RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
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                  http://www.scv.org/
                  http://www.scouting.org/

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                  • #10
                    I just played parts of a computer game that depicted a US fractured into five nations in the 21st Century.

                    It would be likely that the 20th C would have still been a Eurocentric world. I recall seeing a book at Borders that played with a divided US into the 20th C with the Confederates allied with Germany for both wars.
                    TTFN

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kendoka Girl View Post
                      I just played parts of a computer game that depicted a US fractured into five nations in the 21st Century.
                      What (or where) were the 5?
                      It would be likely that the 20th C would have still been a Eurocentric world. I recall seeing a book at Borders that played with a divided US into the 20th C with the Confederates allied with Germany for both wars.
                      Probably Turtledove's. For me, that's a nearly impossible scenario given the South's close ties with England. If I recall, it also has the South becoming a fascist state, which it doesn't take the brains of an archbishop to see is incompatible with States Rights.
                      Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                      Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                      "Never pet a burning dog."

                      RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
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                      http://www.sca.org
                      http://www.scv.org/
                      http://www.scouting.org/

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Janos View Post
                        Let's really get out far on the limb here.

                        What if the North had allowed the South to secede? Moreover, what if there were more secessions? It has been argued that were the South to be successful, there may be other secessions from the US so let's explore that.

                        Let us say for the purposes of discussion that the US split into four nations peacefully.
                        • The United States (generally in what is now the northeast across to Minnesota and down to Kansas and Maryland)
                        • The Confederacy (11 or 13 states, as you prefer -- I don't see how it makes a difference here)
                        • The Pacific Nation* (California, Oregon, Washington) and
                        • Deseret (the Mormon State encompassing Utah, northern Arizona, Nevada, and Idaho)

                        What about the middle territories (Colorado, for example)?
                        And more importantly, what is the impact on the world?
                        What's the future for these four nations?

                        *Extra points for a good name for this country.
                        Interesting premise...

                        Rocky Mountains Republic...

                        First off i would suggest that Desertia wouldnt last long economically and so would look to ally or combine itself with one of the other three. Pacifica seems the obvious choice to me for she would gain the benefits of have territory spanning the Rockies (allowing eastward trade and colonisation).

                        Once established in see 'The Mountaineers' concentrating on expansion westwards into the Pacific, in the areas of trade and industry. Hawaii would become the major stepping stone for them into the Western Pacific area.

                        In terms of the North American continent i would see them as a close ally of Mexico and possibly of Canada, but for different reasons. Mexico would provide mutual support against any expansion of the south westwards. Canada would be beneficial regarding developing Pacific northwest America and cement trade links with the British Empire in the western Pacific.

                        By the late 1800's I would foresee the Republic allied with Britain pushing up against Japanese strategic interests in the Western pacific, possibly leading to open warfare in either the Phillipines or SE Asia.


                        USA...

                        Here i see a strategy of the Union biding its time and preparing to create an Eastern United States to balance the West. Essential to this plan would be the absorbtion of the south. To this end i see her initially allying to Britain to secure her northern borders and then waging economic warfare against the south. The latter tactic has two main objectives. First to cripple the souths economy prior to a probable invasion. Second to weaken the souths border states in the hope that failing economies will cause them to defect.

                        In terms of its economy i see a sustained drive to populate its western areas as much as possible, to stabilise the frontier with the Mountaineers. This would help build the economy as a whole prior to the confrontation with the south, so that a sustained effort could be made in the war.

                        Trade i see as primarily with Europe to begin with, but concentrating on establishing firm markets in central and south America. This would both boost the economy and help undermine the south.


                        Confederacy...

                        Here i see nothing but a declining nation with potential enemies on every border. Due to the efforts of the USA and its allies i see her economy going into meltdown in the last quarter of the 1800's. Its at this time she will probably try a military adventure or two, aiming to unite the nation, revitalise the ecomomy and gain territory.

                        The West would seem the likely place for expansion and i foresee a total disaster after some initial success. The Mexico-Mountain alliance kicks in and the initial western gains turn into losses. Both 'Republics' now get Britain et al to join an economic squeeze and the souths economy falls apart under the strain of war. Following this the USA sees her chance and joins the western alliance in its war on the south. Within a year the nation is carved up between the victors. Mexico regains Texas. The Mountaineers New Mexico and possibly other territory. The rest joins the Union.


                        1890...

                        This needs thinking about... back soon!

                        Gary

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Janos View Post
                          I'll mail them -- Probably best if you go stand by the mailbox until they arrive.
                          I'm going outside now (in the snow)...Try to send them express ok?
                          Just like children sleeping, we can dream this night away... ~NY

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lweber1978 View Post
                            I'm going outside now (in the snow)...Try to send them express ok?
                            No problem. The truck'll be there any minute.
                            Barcsi János ispán vezérőrnagy
                            Time Magazine's Person of the Year for 2003 & 2006


                            "Never pet a burning dog."

                            RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:
                            http://www.mormon.org
                            http://www.sca.org
                            http://www.scv.org/
                            http://www.scouting.org/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Janos View Post
                              Altho' I agree in general, I suspect the Pacific Nation and Deseret would have reached some sort of arrangement so that Deseret could do trade. After all, there were a lot of LDS folks in California.

                              Now that I'm retired, I guess I'd be down here in Virginia, living on my plantation.
                              Janos, fun thread. "What ifs" can be fun if the responders take it seriously. Airsirgarnett hit a heck of a post. Don't know if I agree with all of it, but it was very well thought out.

                              I know many of us here can handle this, but if it starts a "flame war" with "others" forget it.

                              1. Given the vast area involved, and the possibility of immigration barriers from the East, could Deseret have maintained itself as a theocratic unit? Consider that many of the "Pacific" population would maintain the predjudices created during the events in the East. Could they be faced with exchanging Salt Lake City as their Capitol due to the difficulty projecting their power to the Western borders of Deseret? Does the question of poligamy still carry the same political/social barrier to involvement with the Pacific Gov?

                              On other matters,

                              2. Do the British move South into the PNW and re-establish their claim to the Columbia River?

                              3. As the mineral, metals discoveries continue in the Rockies, do other regions attempt to control that area as a means of shoring up their currencies?

                              Fun stuff. Any ideas?
                              My Avatar: Ivan W. Henderson Gunner/navigator B-25-26. 117 combat missions. Both Theaters. 11 confirmed kills. DSC.

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