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What If the StuG III was an APC?

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  • What If the StuG III was an APC?

    In 1944 on the European front, the Canadians had a good adaption; of their production Sherman chassis, into the APC Kangaroo. The turretless chassis APC could carry a squad (9 men), with the protection of 50mm of armor;(not that in 1944 the Panthers 75mmL71 or the 75mm PAK ATG could still complete a penetration on the Kangaroo.)

    So in this What IF, the Germans in 1942 (or earlier) adapted and converted a the Pz III and Pz IV chassis after its conversion to a self propelled Gun (StuG 75mmL24 or L/56);
    into a Vorpanzer StuG heavy infantry assualt carrier APC;
    EDIT:this roofless StuG APC (as opposed to the turretless kangaroo APC), I would estimate to have a squad capacity of 6 to 7 men.
    Not many need to be made, maybe only 30 StuG AFV set aside or up to 120 StuG APCs; These would go to elite and famous Panzer Divisions or a beef up (AFV stack) of a Panzer Grenedier Divsion
    What are the advantages of a StuG Vorpanzer APC?
    Against weaker Allied Anti tank guns, the StuG APC can allow more protected manuever for the Panzergrenedeirs on the battlefield. The Panzergrenediers for example, can when the situation requires, get closer; or cross reinforce over dangerous open ground;


    The SutG APC can be adapted to a mortar carrier; such as a pair of 50mm mortars or a single 81mm or later in the war, a 120mm mortar.

    When the Panzershreck (bazooka) makes its appearance, panzergrenediers armed with this weapon would like to get closer to their targets the begin with.
    Or rush to the defense of a Tiger I isolated and in trouble from enemy close infantry assault.

    The Vorpanzer is additional armor bolted on, say 15mm or 20mm; with the Pz IV like Shurzen side armor covering part of the wheels and track.

    A fast T-34/76 would still be the StuG APCs nemesis ;with the T-34 having some capacity to single it out as a target:
    But the StuG APC would almost always need Jagdpanzer overwatch and cover fire.(when the T-34s are around.

    So would, say, 60 StuG APCs change much on the 1941/42/43 battlefield in terms of raising the combat power of selected Panzer and PanzerGrenedier Divsions?
    Last edited by webmill2203524; 17 Dec 07, 10:55. Reason: plus 1/2 squad

  • #2
    I would say that it wouldn't do anything to change the outcome. Just like putting jet engines on fighter planes...it was a good idea, but too little, too late.

    Sure, the units using the StuG would be able to function better, and have a better accounting for themselves on the battlefield, but not enough to alter things. Maybe, even at the most extreme end, it would have served to delay the ending of the war, but that's about all.

    But, Allied air power would now have a larger target to attack. Against that, I'd much rather have my soldiers spread out in cover than couped up in a slow-moving duck waiting to be blown up from the sky.
    The First Amendment applies to SMS, Emails, Blogs, online news, the Fourth applies to your cell phone, computer, and your car, but the Second only applies to muskets?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by webmill2203524 View Post


      So would, say, 60 StuG APCs change much on the 1941/42/43 battlefield in terms of raising the combat power of selected Panzer and PanzerGrenedier Divsions?
      It was never done as the first StuGIII with the 75mmL24 battalion in Barbarossa was very successful; as a self propelled gun.
      And the Germans needed every one. With the Germans undefeated in breakthrough and encirclement warfare throughout 1939/40/and to the last month of winter 1941; the Panzergrenediers with their Sdk 250/251 were successful enough (with the 250 HT having cross country ability)
      Improving this,( would be a project, I would put forward that the Germans would like to get to this but where did they have a PzKw III or IV chassis to spare?;

      If the set aside StuG APCs were supplemented by towed anti tank guns ; the Germans would have to see the combat value first and early of such Vorpanzer StuG APC before they rearranged their 75mm barrels and Pz III and IV chassis to make it possible.

      Ironically, most Pz III chassis were worn out in Barbarossa , and many SdK250/251 HT APCs lost and abandoned (where a StuG APC might not be, it would/should be still running during the winter of '41/42)
      Last edited by webmill2203524; 17 Dec 07, 20:52.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by webmill2203524 View Post
        In 1944 on the European front, the Canadians had a good adaption; of their production Sherman chassis, into the APC Kangaroo. The turretless chassis APC could carry a squad (9 men), with the protection of 50mm of armor;(not that in 1944 the Panthers 75mmL71 or the 75mm PAK ATG could still complete a penetration on the Kangaroo.)
        The First Kangaroo's where Priest SPG's with the gun removed. Then The Idea came about to use Canadian RAM tanks. Not Sherman's. Some work was also done on Churchill Kangaroo's.
        Winnie says
        ---------------------------------
        "He fell out of a Gestapo car, over a bridge, and onto a railway line. Then was run over by the Berlin Express.

        It was an Accident."
        Herr Flick.

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        • #5
          Reply to Listy:

          Yes, thats correct, of course;

          I was using the term Sherman chassis loosely; as the Kangaroo APC with its RAM chassis was based in turn on the US M3 Lee chassis; and the Priest SPG was either a RAM or Sherman chassis

          The Churchill Kangaroo is very interesting...any photos?
          Last edited by webmill2203524; 17 Dec 07, 20:14.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by webmill2203524 View Post
            Reply to Listy:

            Yes, thats correct, of course;

            I was using the term Sherman chassis loosely; as the Kangaroo APC with its RAM chassis was based in turn on the US M3 Lee chassis; and the Priest SPG was either a RAM or Sherman chassis

            The Churchill Kangaroo is very interesting...any photos?
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:C...garoo_tank.jpg
            Winnie says
            ---------------------------------
            "He fell out of a Gestapo car, over a bridge, and onto a railway line. Then was run over by the Berlin Express.

            It was an Accident."
            Herr Flick.

            Comment


            • #7
              The Stug Didnt have enough room, and was too useful in it's function as was.

              Now, the Hetzer might have been a good APC, with the engine up front. They even had a remote-control MG on top, something that the guys with M-113s in Nam wish they'd had.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                The Stug Didnt have enough room, and was too useful in it's function as was.

                Now, the Hetzer might have been a good APC, with the engine up front. They even had a remote-control MG on top, something that the guys with M-113s in Nam wish they'd had.
                The Hetzer was too small to be utilized as an APC. No room in the fighting compartment for any extras.~
                "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by johnbryan View Post
                  The Hetzer was too small to be utilized as an APC. No room in the fighting compartment for any extras.~
                  Weren't the Germans about to finish development of a new fully tracked APC which looked like a Hetzer?

                  A Stug with skirts is an almost APC, with a load of grenadiers on the rear deck.
                  Winnie says
                  ---------------------------------
                  "He fell out of a Gestapo car, over a bridge, and onto a railway line. Then was run over by the Berlin Express.

                  It was an Accident."
                  Herr Flick.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Listy View Post
                    Weren't the Germans about to finish development of a new fully tracked APC which looked like a Hetzer?

                    A Stug with skirts is an almost APC, with a load of grenadiers on the rear deck.
                    I recall hearing about a prototype called the "Kätzchen" which was based off the 38(t), It was supposed to have been able to carry 6-7 soldiers in a open topped rear compartment.

                    IIRC they made two around 34-44 and then abandoned the project.

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                    • #11
                      What if?

                      They'd have an even worse shortage of fuel.

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                      • #12
                        Kätzchen, prototype APC vehicle

                        Originally posted by Listy View Post
                        Weren't the Germans about to finish development of a new fully tracked APC which looked like a Hetzer?

                        A Stug with skirts is an almost APC, with a load of grenadiers on the rear deck.
                        Type : Armored Personnel Carrier
                        Length : 4.22m (13.9 ft)
                        Width : 2.34m (7.7 ft)
                        Height : 1.45m (4.8 ft)
                        Engine : Maybach HL50
                        Armament : 1 or 2 7.92mm MG42 Machine Gun




                        "In modern war... you will die like a dog for no good reason."
                        Ernest Hemingway.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Achtung baby View Post
                          That's beginning to look allot like a modern APC, and not to far off an IFV.
                          Winnie says
                          ---------------------------------
                          "He fell out of a Gestapo car, over a bridge, and onto a railway line. Then was run over by the Berlin Express.

                          It was an Accident."
                          Herr Flick.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            *shudders*

                            Open top APCs just don't do it for me.
                            The First Amendment applies to SMS, Emails, Blogs, online news, the Fourth applies to your cell phone, computer, and your car, but the Second only applies to muskets?

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                            • #15
                              Well I'll be damned... there it is.

                              Sure looks like a modified TnHp chassis to me!

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