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What if Cortez had lost, and the Aztecs won?

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  • Carl Schwamberg
    replied
    Originally posted by Adrian Wainer View Post
    that's fun have you a reference for that story

    Best and Warm Regards
    Adrian Wainer
    One version was a short story published in one of the SciFi magazines in the late 1980s or early 1990s. I cant recall anymore than that. The other version was much older a novel from the 1960s. It was based on the premise that the Jews of early Medival Europe fled to North America and established a Jewish/European civilization there.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Hida Akechi View Post
    They shouldn't if there is little contact, but I'm supposing that epidemics would occur before the fisherman and locals could start dating to produce enough offspring for "red-headed Native Americans".

    I guess
    Well even if there is contact but the contact is only with nomadic small groups, the epidemic is not going to amount to much, in that the small group will meet with the fishermen they will get hit by the disease and they will be dead, it is when one introduces a disease agent which is spread by person to person proximity as smallpox is, in to a urban setting with a significant population amongst persons lacking resistance to the disease that one gets a disease firestorm.

    Best and Warm Regards
    Adrian Wainer

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    With regards to the Aztecs. They were doomed from the moment Cortez showed up. At least one of his original soldiers was a "Typhoid Mary" and carried active Small Pox. He came in contact with the Aztecs and within 10 years historically, even if he was only one among several, the natives had contracted and spread the disease. 90%+ of the pre-Cortez Aztec population was dead.
    With it would have gone their empire and civilization.
    Obviously smallpox and other novel diseases introduced by the Spaniards would have had a huge impact on the indigenous peoples but I think one should also examine the effect that Spanish rule had on the native populations in causing loss of life.

    Best and Warm Regards
    Adrian Wainer

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
    Cerrtainly had Spain been somehow repeled from the Aztec region the colonial pattern would have been different.

    There have been several science fiction storys about this. In one Jews fleeing pogroms in Europe bring metalurgy and other technology to the American civilizations a century or two before Columbus. The would be Conquistadors or the early 1500s are horrified to run into a energetic Jewish civilization with serious military skills.
    that's fun have you a reference for that story

    Best and Warm Regards
    Adrian Wainer

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  • T. A. Gardner
    replied
    With regards to the Aztecs. They were doomed from the moment Cortez showed up. At least one of his original soldiers was a "Typhoid Mary" and carried active Small Pox. He came in contact with the Aztecs and within 10 years historically, even if he was only one among several, the natives had contracted and spread the disease. 90%+ of the pre-Cortez Aztec population was dead.
    With it would have gone their empire and civilization.

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  • Carl Schwamberg
    replied
    Now thats a major move, Terre Haute to Lebanon. I used to have a regular customer there named Baker. She owned some apartments & we were frequently in town rebuilding rotten floors & replacing windows. I still stop there a couple times a year to see what Masons Books has on the shelf.

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  • Hida Akechi
    replied
    Been in Lebanon for 10 years now. I like it. Came from Terre Haute.

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  • Carl Schwamberg
    replied
    Hida

    The variables would be how many active diseaase carriers there were in the two groups; (The Europeans were vulnerable to North
    American diseases as well) The incubation time for the disease; and the relative health of the target population.

    We havent checked yet to see if red hair is common amoung Breton fishermen.

    I do notice you live barely thirty mile from my home in West Lafayette Indiana. Been there long?

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  • Hida Akechi
    replied
    Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
    Neither do I know if a few fishing camps would be enough to start any major epidemics.
    They shouldn't if there is little contact, but I'm supposing that epidemics would occur before the fisherman and locals could start dating to produce enough offspring for "red-headed Native Americans".

    I guess

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  • Carl Schwamberg
    replied
    I've not studied that era enough to know the current take on when the epidemics and die offs started. The survivors of Navarros expedition in the very early 1500s reported a densely populated Gulf coast and Mississippi basin. Subsequent Spanish explorers in the same region reported numerous abandoned towns long neglected fields and a thin population. What the archelogical evidence shows I dont know. Neither do I know if a few fishing camps would be enough to start any major epidemics.

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  • Hida Akechi
    replied
    Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
    Most of the early attempts at colinization collapsed. Even the simple exploratory ventures had a bad record. Hudsons final trip had few survivors. Navarros expedition started with some three hundred men and had four documented survivors.




    Breton fishermen had camps along the Newfoundland coast from the very early 1500s. For repairing boats and drying/salting the fish. Historians have occasionally searched for evidence the fishermen from France or northern Spain had been harvsting the Grand Banks in the 1400s. At least one historian has speculated on a visit Columbus made to several French ports in the 1480s. Perhaps he picked up some hints? However, I've not seen definative evidence for any fishing camps before 1500.
    If this is true, then the contact with the natives must have been non-existant or extremely limited. Because, as I see it, one of the first thing that Native Americans do when they come into contact with Europeans for the first time is die off in the thousands due to some nasty disease they don't have a defense against. No way are babies born from the two peoples in those conditions.

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  • Carl Schwamberg
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    The little Ice Age destroyed the Viking Colony in Greenland, and thus severed the link that North American colonies might have had with Iceland.

    I think that any colony in Vineland would have collapsed and the survivors been assimilated into the native population, and some believe was the case with Roanoke Island.
    Most of the early attempts at colinization collapsed. Even the simple exploratory ventures had a bad record. Hudsons final trip had few survivors. Navarros expedition started with some three hundred men and had four documented survivors.


    Originally posted by Purplefang View Post
    The french found red haired indians when they arrived, somewhere up north..
    Breton fishermen had camps along the Newfoundland coast from the very early 1500s. For repairing boats and drying/salting the fish. Historians have occasionally searched for evidence the fishermen from France or northern Spain had been harvsting the Grand Banks in the 1400s. At least one historian has speculated on a visit Columbus made to several French ports in the 1480s. Perhaps he picked up some hints? However, I've not seen definative evidence for any fishing camps before 1500.

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  • Purple fang
    replied
    The french found red haired indians when they arrived, somewhere up north.

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  • The Exorcist
    replied
    The little Ice Age destroyed the Viking Colony in Greenland, and thus severed the link that North American colonies might have had with Iceland.

    I think that any colony in Vineland would have collapsed and the survivors been assimilated into the native population, and some believe was the case with Roanoke Island.

    Leave a comment:


  • Carl Schwamberg
    replied
    Contact with Europeans a couple centurys earlier, and a slower movement to the new world due to a less robust European economy and population pressure of the 13th and 14th Centurys. That might give the native Americans more time to recover from the devastating plagues like those that that swept through after the entry of the Spanish in the early 16th Century. Then there is more time to asorb European technology and adapt to larger and different political structures.

    So as the Europeans accquired the economic power and population pressure to migrate they woud met a recovering and more capable population in at least North America.

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