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  • Purple fang
    replied
    Agent 146 another book that covers the planned for, but not carried out commando raids by the Germans on Gibralter ships.

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  • Roadkiller
    replied
    OK, I see the issue, the STROG, the Bay of Gibraltar (which you have pictured) and Gibraltar Harbour (the upper left of your pic) are all different geographical features.

    The harbour itself has an inner and outer area, defined by breakwaters and a detached breakwater known as the "mole'.

    Your scheme might be feasible, if extraordinarily difficult, if you are trying to seal the inner harbour.

    A fabulous read is the tale of Italian navy 'human torpodoes' and their war in Gibraltar Harbour. It even has a ship with an underwater entrance for submarines

    http://www.regiamarina.net/xa_mas/gi...braltar_us.htm

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  • Duke William
    replied
    Originally posted by Roadkiller View Post
    ???!!!

    The STROG (Strait of Gibraltar) is 13 km (8 miles) wide and between 300 - 900 meters deep (950 - 3000 feet).
    Perhaps, but right there in the upper left hand corner near that Small Rock that sticks out is The British Naval Base & there in the middle is the right location to potentially attempt to block it.

    Ok, ok, it's 8 Miles wide.

    But if one Major Capital Ship is Sunk there, then there is the possibility of thought that another can be sunk there too.

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  • Roadkiller
    replied
    Originally posted by Duke William View Post
    ... Blocking The Straits of Gibraltar might not be totally impossible. You manage to sink a British Battleship or even a Carrier right there in the straits in the right location and you could end up blocking a portion of it for freedom of manuverability.
    ???!!!

    The STROG (Strait of Gibraltar) is 13 km (8 miles) wide and between 300 - 900 meters deep (950 - 3000 feet).

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  • Purple fang
    replied
    "Also, all Armaments being produced in Sweden then goes to Germany"

    This part is interesting. Sweden did make & send stuff to the British.

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  • Duke William
    replied
    Originally posted by Kevin Kenneally View Post
    Only if the Swiss were able to join the Axis as a friendly neighbor to Germany could the Barbarossa even attempt to succeed.

    As for another Sealion.

    No way could the Swedes or Spain help the Germans when attacking Great Britian. Just too many capital ships (British Navy) to sink before this could even succeed.
    Spain, I forgot about Spain.

    I don't know, with a contribution from Both Spain & The Vichy French, Blocking The Straits of Gibraltar might not be totally impossible.

    You manage to sink a British Battleship or even a Carrier right there in the straits in the right location and you could end up blocking a portion of it for freedom of manuverability.

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  • Kevin Kenneally
    replied
    Only if...

    Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
    no!!!!!!!!!!! the horror, the horror!
    Only if the Swiss were able to join the Axis as a friendly neighbor to Germany could the Barbarossa even attempt to succeed.

    As for another Sealion.

    No way could the Swedes or Spain help the Germans when attacking Great Britian. Just too many capital ships (British Navy) to sink before this could even succeed.

    Leave a comment:


  • piero1971
    replied
    no!!!!!!!!!!! the horror, the horror!

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  • Duke William
    replied
    Originally posted by AdrianE View Post
    The biggest effect of that is that Germany doesn't need to try the naval invasion of Norway. They just go overland. That means they don't lose 1/2 their navy in spring 1940. It also means they don't realize the problems they have with their torpedos.

    With their navy intact they just might try invading England in Fall 1940 and just get absolutely crushed by the still overwhelming English naval superiority. This what if might lead to 10+ German divisions totally destroyed.

    The lack of recognition of the torpedo problem means that the submarine offensive is less effective.
    And here is where I am going to chime in.

    With the Occupation of & The Alignment with Norway, Sweden & Finland, you (Germany) now have complete control of ALL the Iron-Ore Deposits in the region & you also increase your Merchant Fleet Exponentionally (<Spelling?????).

    And with an Increase in Iron-Ore Avalability, maybe The Bismarck & The Prinz Eugen are launched & completed earlier, The Scharnhorst & The Gneisenau are repaired in time & the Invasion Craft are produced that much faster & more plentiful in the coming Invaion of England.

    Norway has some decent Merchant Ships and a few good Naval Vessels & Sweden has a Decent Navy which includes the relatively New Seaplane Cruiser Gotland, not to mention 3 Pre-Dreadnought Battleships & an semi-Excellent Merchant Fleet to boot.

    THIS may not spell out to be the Fleet that could take The Royal Navy, but it might at least give The Kriegsmarine a Fighting Chance in the coming Invasion of England.

    If nothing else, with the addition of The Swedish Sverige, Drottning Victoria & The Gustav V, you then have the Fire Support you will need in the channel if The Schleisen & The Schleswig-Holstein are added to the Invasion Groups with their now complete total of 20 - 11" Inch Guns.

    And Both Norway & Sweden have a decent Minesweeping & Minelaying force as well.

    Also, all Armaments being produced in Sweden then goes to Germany & Licenses for their weapons are no longer sold abroad.

    And even though it is somewhat Obsolete by Modern Standards, Sweden does possess a decent Air Force as well.

    Can you even begin to imagine The Battle that would insue if The Bismarck, The Prinz, The Hipper, The German Light Cruisers & The Gotland were all added to The Herbstriese Deception Plan in the North Sea & if it weren't a Deception Plan at all, but a real threat of a second Invasion Front?

    And with the additional 10 Destroyers that WEREN'T sunk at Norway, that would give the Kriegsmarine a Destroyer Force of up to 18 Destroyers to put in The English Channel.

    Moving around now, to The Eastern View, with Sweden, Norway & Finland backing up & allying themselves with Germany, more than likely, Lithuania, Latvia & Estonia will also do the same.

    HMMMMM..... I smell another Sealion Thread coming about.
    Last edited by Duke William; 22 Nov 07, 06:53.

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  • Purple fang
    replied
    Swedes & Russians have fought here & there in the past. Here's one bit.

    http://www.specialoperations.com/For...nland/utti.htm


    In 1789, the battle of Utti was fought between the Swedish and Russian troops west of the present-day garrison. About a hundred Russians as well as a hundred Swedish-Finnish soldiers were killed in the battle. After the fight, the Russians had to withdraw in the direction of Taavetti.

    As a consequence of the war, the Russians secured the border zone, and the defence of St. Petersburg, by building Utti fortification in 1792. No fighting took place there, and it was of no importance after 1809, the end of the Russo-Swedish War.

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  • Naffenea
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    Barbarossa didn't even come close to succeeding.

    I strongly dissagree.
    From a purely military POV, at any rate.

    400k Swedish troops could have brought about the fall of Lenningrad, which would have freed a huge number of German and Finnish troops by September. Hitler would not have had to choose between the Kiev's envelopment and a line-drive on Moscow, he could have done both that month.

    From a political point of view, the Nazis could never have controled all of the USSR west of the Urals. They were too nihilistic, even for the Russians, and such lousey administrators that it was all a moot point anyway.
    The fall of Leningrad wouldn't have made the Soviet troops of the 7, 14, or 23 armies vanish. In addition, you have the Murmansk/ Archangel front you would need to eliminate, you still have a brutal Russian winter coming up that the Germans aren't ready for regardless of Swedens entrance, and the logistics required to push in successfully would eclipse Germany's ability to maintain the push.

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  • Rambow
    replied
    Main Hitler's problems of using his satellites were often out of military issues. For instance: remember Finnish Commander-in-Chief directly forbade his troops to cross "the old border" and was very unhappy when some of them seized Petrozavodsk in spite of his order. In 1941 Finns had enough troops to cut Murmansk railroad, to close "The Second Ring" around Leningrad and to advance along Karelian Isthmus. But they did not do that. There was a joke: "There are only two nonbelligerent armies in Europe: the Royal Swedish Army and 23rd Soviet Army" (faced to Finns). So I am not sure that Swedish support was warmly welcomed there. IMO That variants would be possible only if most of Swedes wanted to restore kingdom of Karl XII by any price and Hitler did not object.

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  • Full Monty
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    Barbarossa didn't even come close to succeeding.

    I strongly dissagree.
    From a purely military POV, at any rate.

    400k Swedish troops could have brought about the fall of Lenningrad, which would have freed a huge number of German and Finnish troops by September. Hitler would not have had to choose between the Kiev's envelopment and a line-drive on Moscow, he could have done both that month.
    Logistics would have prevented the kind of operation you envisage I'm afraid.
    The only way that the fall of Leningrad might have changed things would have been politically had the dent to the Communist regime's prestige been large enough.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Exorcist
    replied
    Barbarossa didn't even come close to succeeding.

    I strongly dissagree.
    From a purely military POV, at any rate.

    400k Swedish troops could have brought about the fall of Lenningrad, which would have freed a huge number of German and Finnish troops by September. Hitler would not have had to choose between the Kiev's envelopment and a line-drive on Moscow, he could have done both that month.

    From a political point of view, the Nazis could never have controled all of the USSR west of the Urals. They were too nihilistic, even for the Russians, and such lousey administrators that it was all a moot point anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • Full Monty
    replied
    Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
    The entire war did not happen in 1944. If Sweden had joined the Axis in 1941, Barbarossa would have been a done deal.
    I don't see how, Barbarossa didn't even come close to succeeding.

    Leave a comment:

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