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  • Sweden along with Finland ally with Germany

    & Sweden participates in Norway attack, ( & leaves large numbers of soldiers to garrison the place which frees up Germans for east front), & then joins in attack on Murmansk. Swedens interest mainly northern sector.

    How does this affect things in northern part of east front? do their numbers of men mean anything? or will they add valueable hardware as well?

    Sweden did build combat a/c & other hardware. Not sure how modern it was, or if they were capable producing significant amounts of ground warfare stuff, i.e. rifles, artilerry, trucks & so on.

  • #2
    It would lock down the Baltic Sea, and it would allow the Axis more options in the region. More amphibious operations, possibly.
    For despite the silly sayings about violence never settling anything, history IS changed on the battlefield: ask the National Socialist German Workers' Party.
    -Jerry Pournelle-
    Introduction to 'Hammer's Slammers'

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    • #3
      From http://www-solar.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/~aaron/sweeds.html

      In April 1940 Swedens entire force of 400.000 men was put on full alert. A newly formed national goverment was formed, conscription was increased to 450 days and the armed forces streinght was incresed to 600.000 men, not including civilians who were formed into home guard, aircraft observer and various auxilary units.
      So it appears that up to 400,000 could be used, though I'm not sure as to how the conscription period affects things.

      Here is the TO&E for 1940 for an infantry regiment:

      Infantry Regiment 1940 org.

      Regimental HQ

      Stabskompanie (HQ Company)
      One section of two motorcycles for liasons

      AAMG platoon Six twin-mount m/14 or m/36 AAMGs on tripods

      AT platoon Four 37mm Bofors m/38 AT guns

      Regimental Mortar Platoon
      Two sections of two 80mm m/29 mortars with forward observer

      Trangkompanie (Service Company), divided into combat service
      (ammo, strechers etc.) and baggage service
      (baggage, food etc) as in the Battalions.

      I. Battalion

      HQ (incl a Service Company divited into combat service
      (ammo, streachers etc.) and baggage service (baggage, food etc).
      1. Skyttekompani =20
      2. Skyttekompani
      3. Skyttekompani
      4. Jagerkompani
      5. Kulsprutekompani (MG Company)

      II. Batttalion
      HQ (see above)
      6. Skyttekompani
      7. Skyttekompani
      8. Skyttekompani
      9. Jagerkompani
      10. Kulsprutekompani (MG Company)

      III. Battalion
      HQ (see above)
      11. Skyttekompani
      12. Skyttekompani
      13. Skyttekompani
      14. Jagerkompani
      15. Kulsprutekompanie (MG Company)

      The Infantry Company (Skyttekompani)

      HQ incl. 2 one-horse ammo carts, a two-horse kitchen wagon
      and a two horse baggage wagon.

      Three Platoons each of:
      Platoon Officer
      Platoon NCO
      2 Runners

      Four sections of:
      Section Leader, 6,5mm m/96 Mauser Rifle or m/37-39 SMG
      Assistant Section Leader, 6,5mm m/96 Mauser Rifle
      Private. 6,5mm m/37 Automatic Rifle
      9 Privates, 6,5mm m/96 Mauser Rifles

      One Weapons Platoon each of one MG section of one MG (m/14 or m/36)
      and one mortar section of one 47mm mortar

      The Jager Company (Jagerkompanie, used for scouting and patroling)

      HQ incl. 2 one-horse ammo carts, a two-horse kitchen wagon
      and a two horse baggage wagon.

      Four Platoons each of:
      Platoon Officer
      Platoon NCO
      2 Runners

      four sections of:
      Section Leader, 6,5mm m/96 Mauser Rifle or m/37-39 SMG
      Assistant Section Leader, 6,5mm m/96 Mauser Rifle
      Private. 6,5mm m/37 Automatic Rifle
      9 Privates, 6,5mm m/96 Mauser Rifle

      The MG Company (Kulsprutekompani)

      HQ incl 2 one-horse ammo carts, a two-horse kitchen wagon
      and a two horse baggage wagon

      Three MG Platoons each of two sections of two MGs m/14 or m/36
      Here are the numbers:
      3600 men
      504 horses
      21 wagons
      243 light wagons
      3 staff car
      60 trucks
      42 MG's
      21 Mortars (47mm and 80mm)
      4 AT guns (37mm Bofors)
      Decent sized numbers.

      Their airforce is a non issue.

      For garrisoning Norway, no problem. For adding mass to the Murmansk attack, I doubt it will help much. Again, the biggest problem with attacks in the Karelian Theater and in the north period, is the lack of infrastructure. In the northern latitudes you need a super heavy contingent of engineers to build roads and railways.

      As for Finland joining Germany, it makes no difference.

      Comment


      • #4
        If the Swedes attacked Leningrad through Finland creating a pincer, it might mean the fall of the city. The question becomes, how is the pie divided between Germany & Sweden. A political conundrum, but not as complicated as Morrocco would have been as it had 3 interested parties.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Naffenea View Post

          Decent sized numbers.

          Their airforce is a non issue.
          A very big part of the airforce was in Finland fighting the russians at the time. In 1945 the airforce at least had 600 fighters, and it ended up being one of the worlds most capable during the early cold war.



          J21, domestic SAAB fighter that went into production in 1943


          There actually where plans for an allied led invasion of Sweden (to pre-empt a German one) but that got scrapped when Germany invaded Norway. With the german succeses there also was a real threat of invasion launched from Norway. Given the close ties between the northern countries I cant really see how Sweden would go on the offensive for Hitler... unless there was a threat of a Russian invasion.
          Last edited by Pergite; 13 Nov 07, 14:02.
          "The secret of war lies in the communications" - Napoleon Bonaparte

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          • #6
            I was just going to ask what incentive the Swedes would have for attacking Russia when the Germans had just conquered Norway but Pergite's post covered that.
            The Purist

            Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Purple fang View Post
              If the Swedes attacked Leningrad through Finland creating a pincer, it might mean the fall of the city. The question becomes, how is the pie divided between Germany & Sweden. A political conundrum, but not as complicated as Morrocco would have been as it had 3 interested parties.
              I suspose Swedish Facists or Imperialists would trade help against the USSR for taking over Norway from the Germans. most folks have forgotton Sweden & Norway were a combined kingdom for a while, finally seperating in the early Twentith Century. However I'm unsure if any Swedes, even the Imperialist sort would want Norway back. Maybe they would take a slice of sunny North Africa instead.

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              • #8
                The reverse of tis thread is what if Sweden takes a more active role as a Allied partner. As the war wound down Sweden organized a small brigade of Danes and a few of its own brigades as a intervention force if Germany should collapse. As it was Swedish intervention was unecessary and the Denmark brigade did little more than take the surrendering German soldiers into protective custody.

                Taking some fairy dust and making the Allied drive into Holland & the middel Rhine a bit more sucessfull in Sept 1944 we will take this as triggering uprisings in Norway & Denmark. Do the Swedes have the capability to do anything decisive, and would they be inclined to back of the Danes & Nowegians ?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Given the close ties between the northern countries I cant really see how Sweden would go on the offensive for Hitler... unless there was a threat of a Russian invasion.


                  Indeed, but then, we're in what if, so there it is. My angle was more tactical than political as well. But it remains a good question. Um, perhaps Petsamo, Murmansk & some real estate in the Baltic. A political issue that is of less interest to myself than the tactical possibilities.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Purple fang View Post
                    Given the close ties between the northern countries I cant really see how Sweden would go on the offensive for Hitler... unless there was a threat of a Russian invasion.


                    Indeed, but then, we're in what if, so there it is. My angle was more tactical than political as well. But it remains a good question. Um, perhaps Petsamo, Murmansk & some real estate in the Baltic. A political issue that is of less interest to myself than the tactical possibilities.
                    A look at Swedens industrial production would be usefull. I suspect it would another Italy or Rumania. All resources and manpower, but a drag on the Reichs ability to supply ammo and transportation.


                    I wonder if it might be better to transport the Swedes across the Baltic & have them hold a section of the front of Army Group North, to free up Wehrmacht infantry for use in the attack elsewhere?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Purple fang View Post
                      & Sweden participates in Norway attack,
                      The biggest effect of that is that Germany doesn't need to try the naval invasion of Norway. They just go overland. That means they don't lose 1/2 their navy in spring 1940. It also means they don't realize the problems they have with their torpedos.

                      With their navy intact they just might try invading England in Fall 1940 and just get absolutely crushed by the still overwhelming English naval superiority. This what if might lead to 10+ German divisions totally destroyed.

                      The lack of recognition of the torpedo problem means that the submarine offensive is less effective.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        but why would the average swede fight or support the war? because he/she is told so?
                        hmm... very unswede that, huh?

                        if Sweden would have entered war, I'd see that only to apease that it woudl have perceived as a too agressive Germany and go the Bulgarian way. an axis ally, but with small real contribution in the war, perhaps a SS Sverige (SSS!!) contingent of volunteers?

                        for sure the baltic would be more of a german lake and the pressure on Leningrad would be stronger, but hardly change much.

                        what needs to be asked is in such a scenario, what about post-war Sweden - as it would have to surrender ultimately? would it be part of the eastern bloc or still of the west (I'd assume the USSR would not attempt much against Sweden, as the fall of Berlin would mean the end of it anyways)
                        "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                        • #13
                          Since the war in Russia was such a close-run thing, I think it might have made all the difference.
                          The fall of Lenningrad, especialy in 1941, could have tipped the balance. That city was a huge millstone around the neck of the Axis, so it was indeed a big deal, and a production center for the KV-1 tanks.
                          "Why is the Rum gone?"

                          -Captain Jack

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                          • #14
                            The problem with that is the war in the northern front wasn't anywhere close to favoring the axis. The Finns were great at fighting a delayed winter action against the Soviets, but on the offense, they would face the same problems that would plague everyone else.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Exorcist View Post
                              Since the war in Russia was such a close-run thing,
                              That point of view has been refuted. German operational, doctrinal and logistical weaknesses coupled with Russian reserves and resolve meant that Germany had next to no chance of defeating Russia. I recommend that you read Russia's war by Overy and/or Stumbling Collossus by David Glantz.

                              Comment

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