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  • Defender of the Reich timeline (would like feedback)

    Most of the discussion here is based on a single what-if. Fair enough but I'm developing a paralell timelime for a story I'm writing. Things are different, things are the same. This timeline is premised on the survival of the main character and his effect on history after surviving what should have killed him. Any comments on the timeline itself, suggestions for improvement, etc, are appriciated.

    La Belle Europe and the Great War
    April 30, 1897-November 11, 1918

    Becker is born into an Evangelical Lutheran household, first of five, on April 30 1897 in Tannenburg Germany.

    His father is a junior member of the General Staff, having worked up there through campaigns in Africa, (and later the Boxer rebellion) and major ass kissing. The rest of the family is not so militant, his uncles being middle class clerks and businessmen and doctors.

    Becker is raised is a classicist house like much of Europe, learning Greek, some Latin and reading the classics. Becker also sees some of the many Wild Bill's Wild West Shows and developed a lifelong fascination with America. For all his future conflicts with the Americans, he is at heart, an Americanophille and believes Germany and the US need never come to blows.

    He is also pan-Hellenic hoping to soon see Constantinople restored as the rightful Greek capital.

    Becker forges his father's hand to join the army in the summer of 1914, not wanting to miss out on the "grand adventure" ahead. None of his friends believed war was coming, but Becker was accepted into the army. Later he recalls seeing things so clearly he wished he'd tried to do something to stop it.

    One POD is that Becker should have been killed at the Battle of Tannenburg, his home in 1914, but he didn't get hit, and was later decorated with the Iron Cross. He later tells a Hitler like story of getting knocked down and a bullet that should have hit him square only grazed him. He remembers a man asking him what he wanted. Becker said instinctively, to be great, and the man said there were too many great men, instead, he should be a good man, and greatness will follow. That's how HE tells it anyway.

    Becker is transferred against his will to his father's command position. He seeing 15 year olds being drafted in 1915 and he comes to the conclusion women need to be put into non-combat roles. He convinces his dad, who in turn convinces the Staff to try it, as it could free up men to fight and shorten the war.

    Becker spends 1916 as part of a group of logisticians who supervise the administration of an increasingly large group of units with women logistics, Intel and medical. This quickly breaks down as units desperate for men; settle for women, especially artillery and infantry. By 1918 the German, French, and Red Armies are de facto integrated as it gives more manpower to frontline units. Becker is so burnt out on the horrors of war that this doesn't affect him at all, though he never takes any credit for making modern sex-integrated armies possible.

    Becker learns the art of logistics in WWI. More than being a great tacticians as various war games proved, he knew better how to organize men and women, food and guns and bullets. Becker tries to organize an effort to get the Cei-Rigotti battle rifle to work as a way of defeating trench warfare. He was young and the CR rifle had had too many chances before it.

    By 1918, Becker is a very young but talented Lt. and is transferred to the Italian front where he meets Erwin Rommel. After Rommel saves Becker's life while the Italians counterattacked. Rommel calls him a good kid, but he should go home and get his Abitur. Becker gets shot in the leg and taken home on his father's orders. His leg heels up just as news of the Memel mutinies occur. Becker gets some staff aides together to "shoot some *******ed cock-sucking Communist sailors," but Germany collapses on November 11 and the General Staff orders them to stay put expecting and somewhat getting the quasi civil war Germany got OTL. Becker establishes a vendetta against SDs, anti-monarchists, Communists and for a while Jews. He tells his fellow staffers, in a quote that will dog him for the rest of his life: "Why should the Jews fight for us? It's not their country. So let's dump them all in Palestine and become good neighbors, with good fences” (I’m trying to make Becker a man of his time and place, so that's important to come through)

    Early Weimar period (1918-1926)

    In December of 1918, like many other young men, Becker gets leave from the official army to join the Freikorps, where he acts as an aide-de-camp for the Baltiche Landwehr until 1920. There his newfound anti-Semitism is replaced by a hatred of Communism, a hatred he carries for the rest of his life. The battles of Riga left him with the firm impression that the Baltic States were vital to Germany's defense.

    1921: With the peace relatively secure, Becker returns home and takes his Arbitur. He scores highly enough to be admitted to the Kreigsacademie. He meets a secretary there, 22 year old Julia Schweinherd, a former Stormtrooper from Bavaria with a perpetually infected left foot from an old shrapnel wound.

    1922: Mussolini comes to power in Italy

    1922: England wins the Anglo-Irish war with the help of a mass reserve of loyal Irishmen opposed to the end of home rule.

    1923: The Imperial Conference is held in London. Balfour declaration declares all dominions and the UK are to become a confederation. The United Kingdoms of England Scotland, Ireland, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand is formed. For the rest of the century the new Parliament will be dominated by England, and all prime ministers will be English or Scottish for the rest of the century, but the new Britain retains much of its power, and will remain a minor superpower until the Falklands War of 1981.

    1923: Hitler’s Beer hall putsch. Becker is pleased that Hitler says all the things he wishes to say but can't. Julia reveals herself a war time "Trench lover" of Hitler, and claims after the armistice Hitler just "wasn't right" anymore, and she broke up with him once he got involved with the Nazis.

    Nonetheless, she goes to Sandua prison with Becker to talk with her former paramour, and finds him messianic. Hitler is infuriated that Julia is with someone else, but this quickly passes.

    1924: Becker graduates the academy and is selected for one of the coveted spots in the Reichswhehr. Of 50,000 officers in the post war era, there was room only for 40,000. Becker was more political than the infamously apolitical officer of the Reichswehr, but he was smart, brave, from a military family and a Prussian.

    1925: May 24 Wilhelm Becker and Julia Schweinherd wed. Hitler, recently released, attends as a friend of the bride. Julia claims this is the last time she saw the Old Hitler To her dying day she believed Hitler was unbalanced and corrupted by "thugs and bigots."

    1925: September 6: Eldest daughter Maria is born.

    1926: Becker, now a captain is sent as a technical advisor to Persia. With in days of being there he ruthlessly asskicks a seminary student in Qom for beating a dog. He is promptly ejected from the country. That seminary student was the future Ayatollah Khomeini. For that reason alone, Becker will be loved in some circles into the 21st century.

    End of the Weimar Republic
    1926-1932

    1926-1930: Becker's career stalls. He is assigned to East Prussia where he begins his family in earnest. Sons Julius and Augustus are born in 1927 (twins), and another son Thomas in 1929.

    September 1930- June 1931: Becker, in an attempt to salvage his career, gets permission to go to America to see what he can see. Among other things he sees the River Rouge Ford plant and the Springfield Armory. There he meets with and befriends John Garand. He (somehow) arranges for a few prototypes of the Garand rifle to "fall off the truck." Later Five thousand Reichmarchs make their way to Garand's bank account, but this is not discovered until after Garand's death (Garand never made more than 12K a year historically.)

    1932: Arranges a firearm demonstration to President Hindenburg, showing the faster rate of fire of the Garand. He claims that with an officer heavy 100,000 force, every soldier will need as much firepower as possible. He also demonstrates the power of the Fedov Automat and Cei-Rigotti rifle as templates for a new kind of gun, but the reception is much cooler by the President. Nonetheless, Becker is promoted to Major and his career is back on track. He oversees the project personally, and develops the Gewehr 35 "Pinger" as the standard arm of the German soldier.

    1932: Eagerly votes for Nazis in the elections of that year, breaking with his traditional semi-center right National People's Party. Believes only Hitler can save Germany from Communist influence after Hindenburg dies. Also hopes for more promotion in a larger Army. Julia, his wife tells him not to, but he does it anyway. He does however vote for Hindenburg as President.

    1933: Reichstag fire on February 27, dictatorial powers granted to Hitler through the Enabling Act.

    End of the Weimar Republic

    Early Third Reich (1933-1939)

    1934: Becker meets with Hitler for the first time to show him the Gewehr 35 ‘Pinger.’ Hitler is impressed, and after being shown the Cei-Rigotti and Fedor automat rifles, is convinced these are the future of German arms. Hitler remarks that he likes Becker’s style, and the fact he talks like an Old Fighter. Becker moves his family to Berlin and is put in charge of new weapons for infantry.

    1933-35: Major Becker continues to perfect the Gewehr 35 Pinger. K98 introduced as second line weapons except for snipers.

    1935: Becker begins work on his thesis: Seven Ways to Serve Bear; that is seven plans to conquer the Soviet Union under any condition. In it he calls for a supremely mobile force of motorized infantry armed to the teeth and supported by self propelled (SP) artillery. Though not fully implemented, Guderian and Becker’s visions come into conflict and Hitler plays them off one another to get the best results.

    Germany reintroduces conscription. Women volunteers for enlisted and NCO positions accepted in Wehrmacht. Admiral Tripitz complains and the Navy remains men only. Luftwaffe is immediately sex integrated top to bottom.

    Luftwaffe Infantry and German Marine Corps refurbished along Anglo-American lines on Becker’s and other’s recommendation.

    1936: General Weaver of the Luftwaffe survives a near fatal plane crash. He begins to take a serious look at the new Helicopters, especially the one codenamed Hummingbird.

    1937: Becker publishes Seven Ways to Serve Bear mere months after Actung Panzer

    1938: Becker unleashes his department’s newest creation: the Panzerfaust, in keeping in line with his doctrine of heavily armed infantry. Work on the ‘battle rifle’ to replace the Pinger begins. Trials begin under Becker’s direction in Spain, where Becker becomes fast friends with Francisco Franco

    Becker almost resigns after Jews are stripped of their livelihoods. Again his wife interferes, telling him Germany will need men like him soon.

    1939: While development of battle rifle stalls, with the Panzerfaust, the Nationalists in Spain sweep all before them. Madrid is liberated and the Spanish Civil War is a victory for Fascists and anti communists around the world. Becker and his team are given a service medal for their weapons: the Pinger and the Panzerfaust. Becker is promoted to Colonel in Germany.

    Germany annexes Bohemia and Moravia. Becker is outraged, because he believes Germany has no claim on those territories. He still supports Hitler in the quest to retake the Polish Corridor.

    Germany declares war on Poland. End of the early Third Reich
    Second World War (September 1, 1939 to September 1, 1945)

    1939: Becker is stuck behind a desk when he is contacted by a relatively young physicist named Dr. Joseph Merkwurdigliebe, who informs Becker and others of the potential power of atomic weapons. Becker is the only one to believe him fully, and convinces Hitler to begin an atomic weapons program in case of a long war or backstabbing by the Soviets. Hitler is so impressed with Becker's presentation he even names it after Becker's suggestion (Project Pluto, as in, blowing the Reich's enemies to said planet.)

    September 1939: The Wehrmacht cuts a swath of destruction of through Poland, ending the campaign in a mere four weeks. Helicopter transports and Becker's toys are critical and credited with saving at least five thousand lives.

    November 1939-October 1941: War continues as OTL in Europe. The exceptions are these. Becker is taken off weapons development to help in the planning of Babarossa, as he is considered an expert in the field. Becker, along with others, convinces Hitler to supply winter coats to the Wehrmacht troops to avoid a Napoleon repeat and to go to total war the second Russia is attacked.

    November 1941: the StG-41, the world's first used assault rifle goes into field testing. It proves devastating even in the face of the horrid Russian winter.

    Early 1942: Becker is promoted to General. He is sent under the 11th army under Manstien to subdue the Crimea. Units with StGs perform superlatively and the logistics in Becker's camp are top notch.

    December 1942: Becker relives Sixth Army with the help of Romanian troops liberally equipped with Panzerfausts. Becomes known thereafter among 6th Army vets as der Weinachtmann (Santa Claus) because supplies came in at Christmas.

    July 1943: Becker demonstrates tactical excellence by taking the town of Provkolovka and winning the Battle of Kursk. The Red Army is crippled temporarily, and the Axis finds documents proving Enigma is compromised.

    September 1943: Becker is given control of the 10th army and crushes the Anglo-American landings at Selarno

    October 1943: Becker launches operation Archimedes, the recapture of Sicily. Italy remains a firm Axis ally. Stalingrad evacuated masterfully by Paulus as the Red Army under Ursula Petrona, the USSR’s only female general, comes in. Becker promoted to Feldmarschall. Me-262 begins mass production

    November 1943- July 1944: Becker is assigned to Army Group Center where his aggressive maneuvers destroy several Soviet Armies. In June of 1944, during the big thrust, Becker stakes his reputation on a retreat to Minsk, circles around and DESTROYS the central thrust of the Soviet advance. Konev is killed by a stray German bomb and Zhukov is packed off to a Gulag. Petrona remains the last of the great Soviet Marshals. Becker is relieved out of sheer exhaustion and then only after the front has stabilized. He spends a few months at the Wolf’s Lair, away from the constant, but ebbing bombing raids

    December 1944, Becker leads a strike to Strasbourg through the snow that completely changes the course of the war in the west. The fragile front lines of the Anglo American force collapse and Patton, against orders to retreat, stays on to fight Becker. The third Army is utterly destroyed, and Patton is captured. Allies pushed out of the Low Countries, and the eastern part of the country, but the Germans lack enough fuel to continue to advance (and they are utterly exhausted)

    1945: This is the year everything changes. Operation Merlin, the Luftwaffe’s attempt to destroy all air bases in Britain begins in earnest. Turbo-jet bombers appear in force, and the Allies are decimated. Hitler demands updates on Project Pluto, only to be stalled by Otto Han and Werner Heisenberg stating it would take too much U-235 to make a practical bomb. Hitler demands they find a way.

    February: Becker, through murky means, becomes aware of the Holocaust*. Unfortunately, a massive American counteroffensive is launched in February through March, forcing Becker to put aside his new vow of killing Hitler to restore German honor. Most of the senior officers in the Wehrmacht and even some Waffen SS commanders are with him rapidly. The coup almost falls into his lap

    April 30: The 10th Army is in Berlin headed back to the East Front where Hitler believes the Reds are preparing to mount a new offensive, this time in the north. Becker kills Hitler by his own hand, in front of a camera to prove that yes, a German killed Hitler.

    May: Becker tries to negotiate a peace, but none of the Allies will budge, not even to ensure 15 million Germans will not be ethnically cleansed from the East. Becker must fight on, for he loses his home, hometown and history if he surrenders. On the 26, a thousand bomber raid made up of B-29s and B-24s heads for Dresden. Intelligence* is sure an atomic bomb is on one of them. The Luftwaffe engages and shoots down the offending bomber, whose crew managed to dismantle the bomb before it killed them all. Dr. Merkwurdigliebe is pleased that he was right, Heisenberg is stunned and Han reveals he knew all along but was hoping the Allies would be more civilized and not use such a weapon. Germany has enough nuclear material for four nukes, for a total of five. The American do not dare strike Germany again because Germany does threaten retaliation. Becker would LIKE to nuke American cities over this, but it would take all his bombs to do it and he needs the leverage.

    June: Becker fights Petrona at Riga. They both fought here in 1922, in hand to hand combat, which Becker won, scaring Petrona in the process. He fights her to a bloody standstill, when Intelligence* gets word that Stalin is in his dacha. Becker orders a nuclear strike. Stalin, to put it politely, is reduced to ash. Becker sees an opportunity and tells Petrona he’s killed Stalin, and after 36 hours of lull Petrona realizes he’s right, and she has to move against Beria before Beria kills her (totalitiarian politics are rarely civil). She makes a hasty peace with Becker, restoring the old borders and resuming trade (Becker gives her men Panzerfausts and StGs for example.) Petrona secures the country with shocking speed, but she sees the bigger prize as the East and thus keeps her word with Becker and prepares to strike at the Japanese.

    July: Armies under Manstien pocket and destroy three Anglo American armies in the Normandy peninsula, leaving France wide open. New elected PM Attlee agrees to negotiate with the Germans, as does Charles de Gaulle, as Becker promises a full pull out of France. Truman, seeing that his allies have betrayed him and Becker threatening to nuke American cities if hostilities do not cease finally relents. Negotiations begin at Massnicht in the Netherlands, where Becker demands Italian territories be restored and that Germany (1914 eastern border, Sudetenland, plus Austria) must have its territories. Becker doesn’t ask for much but he yields nothing. Finally after three days, an agreement is reached, where the Axis meager demands are met. The rest of the time is spent drawing up the treaty, one of the shorter in European history. Becker is not the chief diplomat (Von Nuemath is) but Becker does set the tone, a tone of decency, openness, rapprochement and even forgiveness. Becker is not necessarily a great politician, but he is a good man. Germany declares war on Japan (required and Becker is eager to do it to show rapprochement)

    August: 06, Treaty comes into force. Celebrations all over Europe. Russian POWs freed, German POWs and other Gulag prisoners freed, Hiroshima nuked. 09: Russia attacks mainland Japanese holdings, Nagasaki nuked.

    September: 01 Japanese sign formal surrender onboard USS Missouri, exactly six years to the day WWII began.

    And so the cold war began, but that’s another story for another day…

    Thank you for your attention, I hope I have piqued your interest.
    How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
    275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

  • #2
    An interesting tale but issues like him killing Hitler are a problem. If it was known he had killed Hitler and publically so in a period of the war which wasn't going nearly as badly as in the real scenario he wouldnt have lasted 5 minutes. The cult of Hitler and his fanatical support would mean this Becker would've been hanging by piano wire instead of stauffenberg. Also you have a lot of the Nazi wonder weapons coming to fruition without taking into account the allied response in technology aswell. For example Nazi decimtion of airbases in England. I know they've got jets but opposition tech wouldn't have stood still either and the Germans would have same difficulties in bombing Britain and defeating the raf as they did in reality. Its fun but they're a couple of points I personally noticed.

    Comment


    • #3
      OK, that's good, that's good. I forgot to mention Allied counter measures, but they ARE there. For instance, the British have a substandard panzerfaust rip off called the Fat Nelly (AFAIK that's fictional). The Americans have bazookas like they do historically. The Allies do have helicopters, though, and have them in spades. The Me-262 I figure could be explained by the survival by General Weaver. Weaver puts resources into the project where they were not put in, and this catches the allies off gaurd because they were busy in other areas od aviation research. By May 1945, the Gloucaster Meteor is coming online but there's still not nearly enough of them.

      As far as the cult oif Hitler, I think you have a point. So let me try and elaborate. First, Becker is determined to kill Hitler and the top Nazis at any cost. Whether he lives or dies is not important to him. How he survives, though is more than just luck, and I know there's going to be at least one major attempt on his life during the last days of the war, probably involving a car chase. I was thinking that Becker goes directly to the Reichstag and explains exactly what he has discovered about Hitler's crimes. While others have made the case that the Germans might not feel much guilt about the Holocaust, I think they would say that kind of crap needed to be stopped. Plus the cult of Hitler was crumbling by 1944 IRL, defeatism was everywhere, and I plan to try and recreate that atmosphere in this story percolating in my brain. Does any of this assuge your concerns?
      How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
      275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

      Comment


      • #4
        Some but the problem is in the real scenario the cult of personality of Hitler was huge even as Berlin crumbled with SS running around shooting defeatists. Hell they even told everyone Hitler had run down the street at the Russians with a machine gun. In your scenario the Wehrmacht has inflicted heavy defeats on the Russians and western allies in latter stages of the war. If you put that into the propoaganda machine of the time I can only see Hitler being even more popular at this point. If you need to get rid of Hitler maybe you need a more devious way of getting rid of him, one that doesnt implicate your main character as impication would mean his down downfall imo . Your character as you have portrayed him is intelligent and cunning, his removal of Hitler I think should match this. Faked natural death perhaps. So the glorious fuhrer is dead andBecker steps in to save the leaderless reich.

        The wonder weapons still slightly concern me though( Im not trying to slag off your efforts but help you with a real scenario, obviously you dont have to take my advice) I think you have to give attention to the supplies of war industries issue) The biggest problem withe me262 for example was engine relaibilty due to lack of exotic metals like tungsten to cope with heat. The blockades of the Atlantic were huge in stopping this kind of supply. For your scanario/ story I think you need to look at the German navy being revamped aswell as Allied naval dominace is aproblem I feel for your scenario. For example the Graf zeppelin aircraft carrier gets finished amongst others.
        Last edited by copenhagen; 10 Sep 07, 09:15.

        Comment


        • #5
          intersting.

          about Stalingrad. if it is relieved, it means that not only the soviet surrounding soviet armies are defeated, but that eventually the Soviets do not manage to strike through to the Donbas.

          which means that in the late winter of 1943 Axis forces are in a much better shape than in reality and so will prove a much tougher opponent in 1943. this will mean than the soviet forces may not reach into Germany in 1945, but later.

          on the western front. what happens in the med, etc.

          better anti-tank equipment and generally equipment would make allied advances in the west also slower, no?
          "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
            intersting.

            about Stalingrad. if it is relieved, it means that not only the soviet surrounding soviet armies are defeated, but that eventually the Soviets do not manage to strike through to the Donbas.

            which means that in the late winter of 1943 Axis forces are in a much better shape than in reality and so will prove a much tougher opponent in 1943. this will mean than the soviet forces may not reach into Germany in 1945, but later.

            on the western front. what happens in the med, etc.

            better anti-tank equipment and generally equipment would make allied advances in the west also slower, no?
            OK, Piero, here's a rough, ROUGH map of what I imagine the European theater looking like in April of 1945:


            So the Reds are not even close to closing in on Berlin, but in the words of Heinrici, the Eastern Front is still a house of cards. More importantly, the Yalta Conferance still went off and the Germans and their allies understand that Eastern Europe will be subjected to Communist domination should the Germans lose.

            As for the med, the Allies took North Africa in 1943 and Sicily as they did historically, but Becker crushed the Selarno landings, and then retook Sicily, but the Axis did not have the power projection capacity to re-invade North Africa. The Med is an abandonded theater for the most part, the Axis and Allies consentrating on other fields (though Mussolini spends a lot of effort foritfying Sicily from another Allied assualt).

            As for the Western Front, the Axis could have done a much better job except that, as in real life, Hitler's meddling costs them dearly. I was thinking that that front goes historically until the Battle of the Bulge and the Battle of Strassbourg. Here the German advantages finally pay off and lead to the destruction of at least the American 3rd Army and possbily more.

            Does that clear things up a bit?
            How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
            275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

            Comment


            • #7
              yup makes sense.

              but then this would mean that the German army could spare a few corps to send west to crush the allied beachead in Normandy. two additional panzer corps in the first month in Normandy (i.e. numerically, the survirors of Stalingrad and the other 1942 debacle, armed with the weapons not lost at Kursk) would smash any allied landing ??
              "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
                yup makes sense.

                but then this would mean that the German army could spare a few corps to send west to crush the allied beachead in Normandy. two additional panzer corps in the first month in Normandy (i.e. numerically, the survirors of Stalingrad and the other 1942 debacle, armed with the weapons not lost at Kursk) would smash any allied landing ??
                Well Piero, this is why I come here, I'd never think to ask that on my own. I would think that without a decisive blow on the Eastern Front, the Krauts would need every availible soldier in the east, just like historically. The Germans of this story have a slight advantage in recriutment because they use female soldiers, but so does the Soviet Union, so Soviet manpower becomes nigh-on-inexhaustable, though Becker Heinrici and Manstein just about pull it off 1943-45.

                In any case, my understanding of the Western Front was that of Rommel's assessment: fight them on the beaches, or fight them on the Rhine. Once the Americans were ashore, I'm not sure anything could stop them except a bold, Bulge-style conter offensive, and besides I haven't heard of any German actions or plans to throw them back into the sea. Besides, I figure the Allies would learn a few lessons from Selerno and came in gung-ho and blew the Germans to hell and kept blowing them up (with local air superiority) until they took the port towns and could resupply in force.

                And copenhagen:
                I understand the whole cult of personality, but I talked with a military historian at Ohio State and he told me there was a lot of evidence that Ernst Kaltenbruner, not exactly a nice guy, covered up the involvement of large portions of the army and SS in the Staffenburg plot. He said they widely understood that as long as Hitler was alive there was no way the Allies would negotiate with the German government (and even then). Yes the rank and file SS might be a problem. Another professor told me that You'd have to kill all the Waffen SS generals, maybe even the Colonels too, or face a massive guerilla uprising for years afterward. I'm not sure if I'm going to include that in the story or not, but I was thinking in any case, the story is so busy that a complicated coup might muck things up a bit too much. Besides, the order of succession would involve a lot of Nazis before it gets to the military men, I don't know how Becker could achieve power without a coup.

                Are there any other weak points in the timeline I should adress?
                How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
                275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

                Comment


                • #9
                  I do not voice criticism, just react to some points. it's quite ijnteresting actually.

                  here is another: women in the German army? this is very very non-nazi in doctrine. women were for sure in auxillaries fucntions and central in nazi society (for breeding, etc.) and that's why slave labor was put to work. but combat was something that would horrify the German people.... after all they thought they fought to protect german women and children against the evil jews and communists - remember the germans thought they were defending themselves against these two group of people.


                  on rommel (one of my favourite over-rated generals), I think he was wrong. you can't stop a decisive force with superior firepower to land. but you can pin them down on the coast line and harass supplies (those nice weapons and reinforcements can hold the invading force, while the jet aircraft can cause havoc on the beach heads and supply ships, etc.). the Allied got stuck in Normandy for one month. imagine after 2 weeks, that an extra panzer corps and 2-3 german infantry corps join the fight. the Allied troops might find the surface they are on very tight - possibly too tight.
                  "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
                    here is another: women in the German army? this is very very non-nazi in doctrine. women were for sure in auxillaries fucntions and central in nazi society (for breeding, etc.) and that's why slave labor was put to work. but combat was something that would horrify the German people.... after all they thought they fought to protect german women and children against the evil jews and communists - remember the germans thought they were defending themselves against these two group of people.
                    Well, there are reason not entirely historical why I've chosento go down this road. One is because of certain, shall not be named alternate history books *cough*Marching Through Georgia*cough* there's somewhat of a fixation with evil, bisexual, stormtrooperettes. Now I want to put some dignity back into the idea of women in combat, and I'll probably butcher it but what the hell. The other reason is to satarize the Nazis as romantics. They think with their hearts, not their brains, and it's their hearts in this world that kept women out of war factories until well into 1943, but my story they become fascinated by the notion of the 'shield madien' because many of them served with women in WWI. I think it's kind of silly to follow a leader who's worldview was based on Wagerian Operas.


                    Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
                    on rommel (one of my favourite over-rated generals), I think he was wrong. you can't stop a decisive force with superior firepower to land. but you can pin them down on the coast line and harass supplies (those nice weapons and reinforcements can hold the invading force, while the jet aircraft can cause havoc on the beach heads and supply ships, etc.). the Allied got stuck in Normandy for one month. imagine after 2 weeks, that an extra panzer corps and 2-3 german infantry corps join the fight. the Allied troops might find the surface they are on very tight - possibly too tight.
                    I think you have a point. However, this was the same time that Stalin launched his huge attack all along the East Front. I don't see how ANY troops could be spared to defend France under those conditions. IIRC the East Front didn't stabilize historically until September, and stabilize is a relative term (Zukov ran out of supplies). I imagine that stabilizing the East Front favorably to the Germans would take at least that long, and by then, the Allies have broken out.

                    I do wanna say I appriciate all the help guys.
                    How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
                    275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

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                    • #11
                      yes, the soviet offensive in summer 1944 would be quite huge. this bagration woudl start with some strong forces, and indeed woudl cause quite some damage and demand lots of troops from Germany and it's allies.

                      a question on Germany's allies. I think I get Romania and other eastern ones.

                      on Italy though.

                      from your scenario, North africa's war is waged as in reality.right?

                      one thing will make a big difference for italy is their army on the eastern front. would it survive the 1942/1943 winter offensive or not.

                      this was the real straw that broke Italy's camel back.... the fact that so many Italians were lost on the frozen steppe was a much harder blow to moral than the previous losses, one that put the allied victory in tunisia, Sicily in light of inevitable further defeats and that helped the coup against Mussolini.

                      what here? any better fate of the Italian 8th Army in russia and you have a much stronger (politically) mussolini to hold Italy together when facing allied invasion of sicily. this can go a long way for the campaign in the mediterranean.
                      "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
                        one thing will make a big difference for italy is their army on the eastern front. would it survive the 1942/1943 winter offensive or not.

                        this was the real straw that broke Italy's camel back.... the fact that so many Italians were lost on the frozen steppe was a much harder blow to moral than the previous losses, one that put the allied victory in tunisia, Sicily in light of inevitable further defeats and that helped the coup against Mussolini.

                        what here? any better fate of the Italian 8th Army in russia and you have a much stronger (politically) mussolini to hold Italy together when facing allied invasion of sicily. this can go a long way for the campaign in the mediterranean.
                        Tht's a good idea. I thought it was general war exhaustion that broke Italy, but a do you think a very bloody victory by the 8th Army could do the trick of holding Mussolini's government together? That would simplify things for me a little.

                        I haven't thought about the Italians in the war much, but I did think the 8th army would have to survive in order for Becker to get a crack at reliveing Stalingrad. My thinking goes like this: Because Germany goes to full war footing in June of 1941, they have more stuff, not just panzerfausts, which they liberally distibute to their allies, but also more Hummels and sIBs and even K18 towed artillery. If Hitler takes Becker's advice from back in the 30s, he's going to move to a mostly SP artillery army. He can't really do that, but he can free up many towed artillery pieces for transfer to the allies. From my understanding is that the allies all fought bravely, but lacked supplies, espeically anti-tank equipment. Panzerfausts are not designed to be primary anti-tank weapons but they would go a long way. More K18

                        In short, I was thinking the 8th would be badly mauled, but with the help of Manstein, they pull off a brilliant counteroffensive while Becker gets to relieve Stalingrad himself with his portion of the 11th Army. As a result, the coup does not have to materialize, though it comes damn close to happening; Bagdolio hedges his bets. I think with the Italian Royal Navy still intact it will prevent any further Allied incursions except maybe Operation Dragoon, which is a little far away for a brown water fleet like Italy's to handle.
                        How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
                        275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

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                        • #13
                          here's the thing with italy:

                          - in Russia, it was very bad equipped for anti-tank warfare. it only had the obsolete 47mm guns and some french 75mm guns. all very insufficient to stop T-34. It had no tanks. that force had to face the attack of the Saturn offensive (launched after Uranus) - basically a Soviet army with a reinfoced tank corps. over 500 tanks against an italian army of 4 corps with no AT guns. Had italians panzerfausts, you can bet that the Italian army would not suffer so much of a rout (in reality they lost 60'000 dead and wounded and as much captured - almost 80% of its forces) the morale in Italy at this news and at the loss of Stalingrad was one of doom.

                          - if this does not happen (i.e. italian forces retreat in good order, inflicting damage on the attacking soviet forces). the Italian army in Russia would probably be brought back to Italy to face the impending Allied attack in 1943, but it would return "victorious" and not destroyed. and that's a lot of veteran troops (all italian veterans usually ended up in canadian or indian prison camps). so that's a force to reckon with in Sicily for example.

                          - Mussolini was overthrown by it's own party, the fascist party, with agreement of the king. the king was very weak anyways, so an undefeated "russian veteran army" would strenghten Mussolini's regime, and probably would let Mussolini stay, thus the September (or whatever date) Italian "switch" of sides would not happen. Italy would fight on for a while. at least in Sicily, the fight would be much more bitter for the Allied, should they land there. eventually, Italy would be very demotivated, as Sicily would fall, but it may delay further the allied plans in the west. perhaps they might not even try to land on the italian "boot".
                          "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                          • #14
                            A lot of this seems to rely on the early invention of the panzerfaust. This is not a war winning weapon.

                            First of all shaped charged weapons are not needed to defeat the tin can armour of the late 1930's. The ATR and MG bullet are more than adequate at the time. There is absolutely no need for a panzerfaust. Hence the R&D effort required is extremely unlikely.

                            Second Panzerfausts are a defensive weapon that are good in dense terrain. They were a stop gap measure as the Germans couldn't produce enough tanks, tank destroyers and AT guns to properly protect their infantry. The presence of the panzer faust is not going to help the German attack.

                            Your ficticious Becker can't do anything about the material shortages that plagued Germany in WWII. Oil is the key ingredient in mechanized war and the German issues with that are well known. However they are also critically short of things like tungsten, molybdenum, vanadium etc which are equally vital.

                            I find the defeats inflicted on the east and the west in 1944 to be highly unlikely. The Russians were extremely good at operational intelligence by this time. Read some David Glantz. The Russians almost always knew where the major German units were and conversely the Germans never had a clue what the Russians were up to.

                            By 1944 the Russians were extremely good at mobile warfare in both the breach and consolidation phases. Any German counter attacks would hit defense in depth with solid pakfronts and be counter attacked. Look at the Lake Balaton battles for how well the Russians had learned to defeat the German attacks.

                            Defeating the US army was also unlikely in 1944. The average US infantry division had a tank and a tank destroyer battalion attached. Similarly most commonwealt infantry units had a tank brigade attached. They had more and bigger artillery tubes than german equivalents. They were fully motorised. That makes each and every US/Commonwealth infantry division equivalent to a panzer division. US 2nd and 3rd armoured divisions each had more tanks than a fully equipped SS panzer corps. The western allies just have way to much material to lose a major battle.

                            US and British artillery fire control was top notch. The average FOO attached to an infantry battalion could call in almost unlimited fire support if warrented. A British FOO could call a "Victor" target on an massed German attack and that would rain down 216 guns of the corps inherent assets plus the attached AGRAs. The Americans could do something similar.

                            Basically I don't think the Germans inflicting massive war changing defeats on the Allies in 1944 is even remotely plausible.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by AdrianE View Post
                              A lot of this seems to rely on the early invention of the panzerfaust. This is not a war winning weapon.

                              First of all shaped charged weapons are not needed to defeat the tin can armour of the late 1930's. The ATR and MG bullet are more than adequate at the time. There is absolutely no need for a panzerfaust. Hence the R&D effort required is extremely unlikely.

                              Second Panzerfausts are a defensive weapon that are good in dense terrain. They were a stop gap measure as the Germans couldn't produce enough tanks, tank destroyers and AT guns to properly protect their infantry. The presence of the panzer faust is not going to help the German attack.

                              Your ficticious Becker can't do anything about the material shortages that plagued Germany in WWII. Oil is the key ingredient in mechanized war and the German issues with that are well known. However they are also critically short of things like tungsten, molybdenum, vanadium etc which are equally vital.

                              I find the defeats inflicted on the east and the west in 1944 to be highly unlikely. The Russians were extremely good at operational intelligence by this time. Read some David Glantz. The Russians almost always knew where the major German units were and conversely the Germans never had a clue what the Russians were up to.

                              By 1944 the Russians were extremely good at mobile warfare in both the breach and consolidation phases. Any German counter attacks would hit defense in depth with solid pakfronts and be counter attacked. Look at the Lake Balaton battles for how well the Russians had learned to defeat the German attacks.

                              Defeating the US army was also unlikely in 1944. The average US infantry division had a tank and a tank destroyer battalion attached. Similarly most commonwealt infantry units had a tank brigade attached. They had more and bigger artillery tubes than german equivalents. They were fully motorised. That makes each and every US/Commonwealth infantry division equivalent to a panzer division. US 2nd and 3rd armoured divisions each had more tanks than a fully equipped SS panzer corps. The western allies just have way to much material to lose a major battle.

                              US and British artillery fire control was top notch. The average FOO attached to an infantry battalion could call in almost unlimited fire support if warrented. A British FOO could call a "Victor" target on an massed German attack and that would rain down 216 guns of the corps inherent assets plus the attached AGRAs. The Americans could do something similar.

                              Basically I don't think the Germans inflicting massive war changing defeats on the Allies in 1944 is even remotely plausible.
                              Well, Adrian thanks for the comments, and they are duly noted, but let me try and sell you a bit on the plausibility:

                              One is that Germany has far more advantages than just the panzerfaust. Germany has the following strategic advantages over their historical counterparts:
                              1. Two more years of wartime production
                              2. The ending of the 100 bomber raids, making 1943-1945 incredibly productive (remember that Speer made 1944 the most productive year of German war industry historically)
                              3. The Enigma leak was plugged in 1943.
                              4. Italy's whole military industrial complex as well as army (however small) is still focused on aiding the Axis war effort
                              5. (not explictily stated) A lot of the countries that declared war on Germany in South America (particularly Brazil) as well as Turkey were convinced by German victories to stay out of the war. Legit trading is still cut off, but smuggling is still big business.

                              Tungsten can be found Austria, as well as Iberia (Portugal mostly), molybdenum can be found in eastern Turkey, as is chromium, vanadium can be found in bauxite mines, which the Balkans have no shortage of. These shortages were bad historically, but not crippling, and as long as good chunks of the world stay nuetral, they should be less of a problem.

                              Oil on the other hand, is a problem, but I talked to a military historian who told me that it was really oil itself that was in short supply, but REFINING capacity, especially starting in 1942 when 1000 bomber raids, aided by radar blew the hell out of the refineries. They make HUGE targets he said. If the Germans get the Me-262 online, for all of it's problems and I am aware of them, they can shoot down the 1000 bomber raids and keep the petrol going.

                              I should have also mentioned how important 'Seven Ways to Serve Bear' is to German war production in this story. Tacticly speaking, it's very unsexy, but it does take a serious crack at strategic planning, calling for among other thing, SP artillery, mass produced tanks (as opposed to Krupp's batch production), as well as calling for research to be put into producing sythesized Rubber and wood-gas. Thing is, and I've heard this multiple times, the Third Reich was so badly disorganized, you could fit in several more R&D programs and a nuke program and still not effect things much.

                              I'll finish this later, I have to go to physical therapy now; I blew out my knee last month.
                              How many Allied tanks it would take to destroy a Maus?
                              275. Because that's how many shells there are in the Maus. Then it could probably crush some more until it ran out of gas. - Surfinbird

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