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"What if" a Neutral Alliance

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  • "What if" a Neutral Alliance

    What if Sweden,Norway,Denmark,Finland,Estonia,Latvia, and Luthuania all decided to make a defence pact in the late 1930's? They could have standardize their armies by having the same order of battle/TO&E's, the same weaponery and ammunitions and with their combined population of over 23 million would have been able to produce an army of between 2 to 3 million men and women once fully mobilized.They could have also trained together similar to NATO today and had Multi Nation Units so that when it came to war they already had experience working with each other. Sweden could have been the main producer of arms and supplies so they could be totally independent from the Allies and the Axis powers. Sweden could have also created a Lend Lease for the poorer nations so they could recieve arms on credit (which was not a popular thing back in the late 30's with the threat of war)and build up their armies in a faster amount of time to give the Pact more strength.

    I know the Baltic States did try to creat a defence past but it failed and I think it was becasue they all new that if they didn't have a stronger counrty part of their pact it was doomed to fail. I would be very interested in hearing what others think of this.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Thomas491 View Post
    What if Sweden,Norway,Denmark,Finland,Estonia,Latvia, and Luthuania all decided to make a defence pact in the late 1930's? They could have standardize their armies by having the same order of battle/TO&E's, the same weaponery and ammunitions and with their combined population of over 23 million would have been able to produce an army of between 2 to 3 million men and women once fully mobilized.They could have also trained together similar to NATO today and had Multi Nation Units so that when it came to war they already had experience working with each other. Sweden could have been the main producer of arms and supplies so they could be totally independent from the Allies and the Axis powers. Sweden could have also created a Lend Lease for the poorer nations so they could recieve arms on credit (which was not a popular thing back in the late 30's with the threat of war)and build up their armies in a faster amount of time to give the Pact more strength.

    I know the Baltic States did try to creat a defence past but it failed and I think it was becasue they all new that if they didn't have a stronger counrty part of their pact it was doomed to fail. I would be very interested in hearing what others think of this.
    Outstanding post! That would have been a truly powerful coalition of united states in the face of Russian, Stalinist, aggression and expansion. Something to take note of! Good stuff! I believe that the key thing would be the time that it would take to standardize everything and to gear up the arms production factories to begin producing good armaments before Stalin came knocking at the door.
    "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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    • #3
      Originally posted by johnbryan View Post
      Outstanding post! That would have been a truly powerful coalition of united states in the face of Russian, Stalinist, aggression and expansion. Something to take note of! Good stuff! I believe that the key thing would be the time that it would take to standardize everything and to gear up the arms production factories to begin producing good armaments before Stalin came knocking at the door.
      Amen!!!!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Thomas491 View Post
        What if Sweden,Norway,Denmark,Finland,Estonia,Latvia, and Luthuania all decided to make a defence pact in the late 1930's? They could have standardize their armies by having the same order of battle/TO&E's, the same weaponery and ammunitions and with their combined population of over 23 million would have been able to produce an army of between 2 to 3 million men and women once fully mobilized.They could have also trained together similar to NATO today and had Multi Nation Units so that when it came to war they already had experience working with each other. Sweden could have been the main producer of arms and supplies so they could be totally independent from the Allies and the Axis powers. Sweden could have also created a Lend Lease for the poorer nations so they could recieve arms on credit (which was not a popular thing back in the late 30's with the threat of war)and build up their armies in a faster amount of time to give the Pact more strength.

        I know the Baltic States did try to creat a defence past but it failed and I think it was becasue they all new that if they didn't have a stronger counrty part of their pact it was doomed to fail. I would be very interested in hearing what others think of this.
        Superb Post
        If that alliance was "up an running" by the late 1930s, it would change everything I believe.
        I don't believe the "Mainila shots" would have been fired, and Russia wouldnt have "learnd the lesson" in the Russo-Finnish winter war.
        Invasion of Danmark and Norway and the "ore railway"...I don't have the capability to figure out the consequence of this alliance, but I'd sure would like to know "what if"
        When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
        Jimi Hendrix

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        • #5
          A variation of this is no split between Sweden & Norway in the early 20th Century. Had those two nations remained a single state the character of British & German compitition in Scandinavia would be very different.

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          • #6
            Such a formation would definitely have changed things - as Russia could expect a serious fight trying to realise MRP, its interest in MRP would have been much reduced. Without MRP and no way of securing the Soviet flank Hitler's decision to invade Poland would have been much more difficult. Of course it is conceivable that Russia and Germany would have ganged up on both Poland and this Nordic Entente, or they could have agreed on a different division of Poland.

            After its war of independence Estonia was actively trying to push for a defence league including Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland - the so-called little entente. The idea fell through as Lithuania and Poland could not come to terms with regard to the status of Vilnius. Finns on the other hand wanted to distance from the other Baltic States (according to the usage of the term at that time) and seek closer relations with Sweden. Estonia went ahead and formed an alliance with Latvia. However this alliance was mostly on paper and never amounted to much. Estonia did have very close military cooperation with Finland throughout the thirties - especially in the naval sphere. Together the coastal batteries and submarines of Estonia and Finland could probably have sealed the Finnish Gulf for the Russian navy.

            When Estonia received Stalin's ultimatum regarding allowing bases in Estonia, the Est authorities immediately consulted Latvian and Finnish governments to see if any support would be forthcoming should Estonia refuse Stalin's demand. There was no response...

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            • #7
              The Baltic States I could see forming an alliance, maybe even getting Finland involved just because of the Soviets next door, but why would Sweden want to be in on this? They have nothing to gain and possibly much to lose.

              Denmark had no choice but to bend to German wishes that didn't interfere too much with it's own survival and Norway... I got nothing. The way I've read things is that they were more anti-German occupation than pro-British Allied.
              If voting could really change things, it would be illegal.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Thomas491 View Post
                What if Sweden,Norway,Denmark,Finland,Estonia,Latvia, and Luthuania all decided to make a defence pact in the late 1930's?
                Thomas 491, that's a heck of a good first post!

                I suspect all the advantages would have taken more time to implement (standardizing equipment and TO&Es, etc.) so it probably would have had to happen much earlier, probably the 1920s, as soon as the residual fighting from WW1 and the Russian Revolution ended in that area.

                Carl Schwamberg mentioned the possibility of Sweden and Norway remaining unified, and chrisvalla mentioned the nearly impossible position of Denmark. Since we're reorganizing things, why couldn't Denmark rejoin the Swedish-Norwegian kingdom? That would have strengthened Denmark's hand considerably.

                The real problem is the Baltic states. I suspect they were too weak to do much of anything to defend themselves from either the Russians or the Germans and I don't see enough force projection capability on the part of the rest of the Scandinavian Entente to rescue them. I suspect no matter what, they were doomed.
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                • #9
                  Timing is everything!!

                  Hey guys thanks for your input on my post. It is an idea that I have had for a while. I have always been interested in the "what if's" of history and also the underdogs in history such as the Baltic States, and especially Finland.

                  Timming is everything when you plan a alliance such as this. The earlier the better but in order for nations to believe that there is a need for such an alliance there has to be a serious threat of war. In the 20's Europe was trying to recover from the last war and governments were not too interested in spending a large part of their national budget on their armed forces. It wasn't until the early to mid 30's did the nations of Europe start to fear the threat of war. I think if Sweden took the lead and started to modernize their armed forces in the 20's and build up their own armaments and arms industry then offered their assistance to the other 6 nations in the early 30's I think it could have worked. Even though Sweden wasn't directly threatened it would have been wize for them to help their neighbours to increase their own security. Once the other 6 nations agree to Swedens assistance with their armed forces then forming an Alliance would be the next step.

                  This Alliance could have had "NETO Brigades" (Northern Europe Treaty Organization)which was a multi national force of all 7 nations. Each Brigade would have 1300 troops from each nations forming a force of around 9100 troops. Each nation could have had one of these brigades training in their country at all times. The seven armys could rotate their troops threw these brigades so that when it came time for war all of the nations armies would have had some experience in working with the other armies.
                  I think if each of the nations felt that they had an equal part in this alliance then it would work. Also they had to make sure that other nations did not see this alliance as a threat and maintain that this was strictly an alliance that was to ensure neutrality for all the nations that are apart of it.
                  I am glad you guys liked the post and I appreciate your input.

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