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What If Japan Attacks Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941.....BUT

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  • What If Japan Attacks Pearl Harbor on December 7th, 1941.....BUT

    (1) Their is a Combat Air Patrol in the air already that sees them coming?????

    (2) The sinking of the Japanese Midget Sub by The U.S.S. Ward is taken seriously?????

    (3) The Radar Detection of the incoming flight of planes is not taken for granted that they are the incoming B-17's?????

    (4) The Fleet is Alert, Awake & Ready For Action?????

    (5) The Fleet is able to maneuver much like The U.S.S. Nevada?????

    (6) The Enterprise, Lexington & Saratoga are actually at Pearl Harbor with Alert Air Crews?????

    (7) The P-40's are not parked in such a way as to prevent sabotage?????

    (8) That Pilot who we all saw in the movies that is giving flying lessons alerts the base?????

    (9) The Enterprise arrives back at Pearl just as the attack begins?????

    10) A Vengeful, Bitter, Revenge Seeking Winston Churchill actually alerts our President of the CORRECT day upon which The Japanese are going to attack Pearl Harbor?????

  • #2
    Okay, good questions all but why is Winston bitter and vengeful?
    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by revans View Post
      Okay, good questions all but why is Winston bitter and vengeful?
      The Germans took away his tea time...
      I am a simple man. I am by no means smarter than the average man. I am average...yet genius.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by revans View Post
        Okay, good questions all but why is Winston bitter and vengeful?
        Because, Duke says so.
        "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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        • #5
          You would have a Midway, much earlier.
          Life is what happens to you when your busy making other plans! Lennon - www.lufttiger.com

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          • #6
            Originally posted by revans View Post
            Okay, good questions all but why is Winston bitter and vengeful?
            Primarily because Roosevelt wouldn't just hand over everything to England that they needed in 1939/1940 to carry on the fight when Winston asked for it & because England was forced to pay for things.

            Read something somewhere, where Churchill was supposed to have said something along the lines of "Empires Don't Barter" & the other guy on the other end of the phone told Churchill, "No, But Democracies Do", or something along those lines.

            Anyway, I still believe Churchill knew the correct date for the attack on Pearl Harbor & purposefully kept it from us to make sure we were dragged (?) into the war before we were ready & because he (Churchill) needed us to be in the war.

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            • #7
              everybody had to pay the US back. lend lease was not out of generosity. it was business interest - and betting on the better horse.

              to answer your assumptions... .well the Japs would probably cancel their attack and go back to the negotiation table, less Nagumo and Yammamoto who have to commit seppuku after having to explain it was all an exercise gone wrong.
              "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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              • #8
                Could anything else in the deck be stacked against the Japanese? Are US subs operating near the Japanese fleet? Did the bombers fly in a day early and get up first thing in the morning loaded and ready to fight?

                If the USN (and USAAF) were sitting and waiting, Dec 7th would go down as the greatest tactical AND strategic blunder in the history of any Naval attack.

                Now, the kicker... does the US use this advance knowledge and actually wait for the Japanese and give as good as it gets or do we play dumb and let it happen so the country is enraged into a war frenzy?
                If voting could really change things, it would be illegal.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Duke William View Post
                  Primarily because Roosevelt wouldn't just hand over everything to England that they needed in 1939/1940 to carry on the fight when Winston asked for it & because England was forced to pay for things.

                  Read something somewhere, where Churchill was supposed to have said something along the lines of "Empires Don't Barter" & the other guy on the other end of the phone told Churchill, "No, But Democracies Do", or something along those lines.

                  Anyway, I still believe Churchill knew the correct date for the attack on Pearl Harbor & purposefully kept it from us to make sure we were dragged (?) into the war before we were ready & because he (Churchill) needed us to be in the war.
                  That's your opinion, not fact. Let's see your proof about Churchill knowing the correct date of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Also, your quotations are taken out of context.
                  "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Duke William View Post
                    (1) Their is a Combat Air Patrol in the air already that sees them coming?????

                    (2) The sinking of the Japanese Midget Sub by The U.S.S. Ward is taken seriously?????

                    (3) The Radar Detection of the incoming flight of planes is not taken for granted that they are the incoming B-17's?????

                    (4) The Fleet is Alert, Awake & Ready For Action?????

                    (5) The Fleet is able to maneuver much like The U.S.S. Nevada?????

                    (6) The Enterprise, Lexington & Saratoga are actually at Pearl Harbor with Alert Air Crews?????

                    (7) The P-40's are not parked in such a way as to prevent sabotage?????

                    (8) That Pilot who we all saw in the movies that is giving flying lessons alerts the base?????

                    (9) The Enterprise arrives back at Pearl just as the attack begins?????

                    10) A Vengeful, Bitter, Revenge Seeking Winston Churchill actually alerts our President of the CORRECT day upon which The Japanese are going to attack Pearl Harbor?????
                    Given the time frame, any official war warning or sortie signal from the Harbor Tower would have given the fleet an hour at best to prepare, which is just enough time to get the battleships, cruisers and destroyers at General Quarters, set Condition Zed-full watertight integrity and begin raising steam to get underway. It takes over two hours for a battleship to get up enough steam in order to get underway, so only the destroyers would be moving to clear the harbor by the time of the attack.

                    The only reason that the Battleship Nevada was able to get moving so quickly that morning, was that during its last peacetime watch, Officer of the Deck, Ensign Joseph Taussig saw that during the entire time that the Nevada had been in harbor, all of her electrical needs had been met by using the very same, boiler the whole time. He ordered that the load be switched and a second boiler to be "lit-off." When the Japanese attacked, the Nevada already had two hot boilers online and was able to get underway in about fifteen minutes, without the use of any tugboats and without an officer or harbor pilot on its bridge.

                    The Enterprise couldn't make it to Pearl Harbor in any event as she was riding out that same North Pacific Storm that had shrouded and hidden the Japanese Carrier Strike Force for much of their journey. The Enterprise's escort Destroyers were running low on fuel and riding high in the water and that storm meant that there could be no underway replenishment of fuel by the Enterprise. The only way to preserve the escorts remaining fuel was for the Task Force to slow down, which it did.

                    Had the Carriers been at PH, then they would have been empty of aircraft as their planes would have flown off to the various Naval Air Stations in the area.

                    The Air Corps could have scambled some aircraft aloft that morning, how many is up for conjecture. With only an hour's preparation, it would be difficult to roust everyone out of bed on a "hungover" Sunday Morning and get them moving, trying to fuel and re-arm the grounded aircraft, to get them warmed up and into the air.

                    That bit about Churchill is completely laughable and highly incorrect and I say. "Prove what you said to be fact and stop using yourfeelings to guide your thoughts."
                    "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Duke William View Post
                      Primarily because Roosevelt wouldn't just hand over everything to England that they needed in 1939/1940 to carry on the fight when Winston asked for it & because England was forced to pay for things.

                      Read something somewhere, where Churchill was supposed to have said something along the lines of "Empires Don't Barter" & the other guy on the other end of the phone told Churchill, "No, But Democracies Do", or something along those lines.

                      Anyway, I still believe Churchill knew the correct date for the attack on Pearl Harbor & purposefully kept it from us to make sure we were dragged (?) into the war before we were ready & because he (Churchill) needed us to be in the war.
                      Is this part of the whole Pearl Harbor conspiracy thing? Roosevelt let us get attacked so as to bring us into the war? Winston being a co-conspirator? Because if it is, it has been debunked and crushed as a theory so many times it's not even worth discussing again.

                      BTW, Duke, I've read your take on Churchill in other posts and to say the least, you are consistent. You don't like him. But is this because he was a bad leader or because he was the leader of England at the right time, so your obsession never got of the ground? Or better yet, it never put to sea. With his tenacity and vigor at the helm, Sealion never had a chance. So is this the reason for the venom spewed at Winnie?
                      Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by chrisvalla View Post
                        Could anything else in the deck be stacked against the Japanese? Are US subs operating near the Japanese fleet? Did the bombers fly in a day early and get up first thing in the morning loaded and ready to fight?

                        If the USN (and USAAF) were sitting and waiting, Dec 7th would go down as the greatest tactical AND strategic blunder in the history of any Naval attack.

                        Now, the kicker... does the US use this advance knowledge and actually wait for the Japanese and give as good as it gets or do we play dumb and let it happen so the country is enraged into a war frenzy?
                        According to the scenerio, the US Armed Forces on Oahu get a one hour's warning that the Japanese are inbound and on the way. Otherwise, most things go off as they actually happened.
                        "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Are we assuming that they would be able to round up all of the men that were in town for fun or for masses? don't know if this actually was happening but I heard on a vet say on a program that Pearl Harbor was fairly laid back and men went into town often. On the timeline I have it also list a number of other things that weren't inplace

                          If so you have pretty much set it in favor of us. even then it would have been a pretty tight squeeze in which every moment counted. The planes were spotted at 7 and they began to attack at around 7:50. they would have had 50 minutes to reobtain their men, get AA ammo from the lockers and distribute it to the guns, and drape torpedo nets, warn the citizen population etc. I don't think the planes parking would have affected it that much unless they were parked so close that their wings were touching.

                          If the Ward had established the sub as a threat it would have given them an additional 15 minutes.
                          "We Will Stay Here, If We Must All Go to Hell Together"
                          -Col. John R. Cooke, 27th NC

                          Avatar: My Grandfather on the right. His twin on the left. Their older brother in the middle. In their Navy Blues

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by AIrchallenged View Post
                            Are we assuming that they would be able to round up all of the men that were in town for fun or for masses? don't know if this actually was happening but I heard on a vet say on a program that Pearl Harbor was fairly laid back and men went into town often. On the timeline I have it also list a number of other things that weren't inplace

                            If so you have pretty much set it in favor of us. even then it would have been a pretty tight squeeze in which every moment counted. The planes were spotted at 7 and they began to attack at around 7:50. they would have had 50 minutes to reobtain their men, get AA ammo from the lockers and distribute it to the guns, and drape torpedo nets, warn the citizen population etc. I don't think the planes parking would have affected it that much unless they were parked so close that their wings were touching.

                            If the Ward had established the sub as a threat it would have given them an additional 15 minutes.
                            An hour grace period between the first sounding of the General Alarm and the first attack could have made a world of difference regarding the ships of the Pacific Fleet. Had "Condition Zed" been achieved and full watertight integrity been established, then the Oklahoma might not have "turned turtle" and capsized. The West Virginia and lesser damaged California might not have sunk. I say this because all of the ship's anti-aircraft guns would have been fully manned and the powder train established to its magazines. The first wave of the Japanese attack would have run into the veritable buzz-saw of defensive AAA fire that subsequent waves did.
                            "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by johnbryan View Post
                              An hour grace period between the first sounding of the General Alarm and the first attack could have made a world of difference regarding the ships of the Pacific Fleet. Had "Condition Zed" been achieved and full watertight integrity been established, then the Oklahoma might not have "turned turtle" and capsized. The West Virginia and lesser damaged California might not have sunk. I say this because all of the ship's anti-aircraft guns would have been fully manned and the powder train established to its magazines. The first wave of the Japanese attack would have run into the veritable buzz-saw of defensive AAA fire that subsequent waves did.
                              Owe I agree that it still would have been a hell of a lot better for us even with only the hour warning. I was just saying that it would have been a fairly tight squeeze in which every moment of preparation counted. We could have done it but they probably would have seen the planes approaching as the final preparations were made. It would have been like Omaha beach reversed and in the air. Many of the american planes would probably still have been on the ground as the attack began and would have to take off as the attack was happening. With these changes I am guessing that some of the problems that happened could have been avoided. Some of the ships may not have been hit, The Arizona may not have exploded with a direct hit, while other vital things may have been lost. In the end I still think we would have come out on top.

                              I still wonder why the Japs never attacked the gas field. It was a massive target in the middle of an open field.

                              Matt
                              "We Will Stay Here, If We Must All Go to Hell Together"
                              -Col. John R. Cooke, 27th NC

                              Avatar: My Grandfather on the right. His twin on the left. Their older brother in the middle. In their Navy Blues

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