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WHAT IF?????.....Operation Barbarossa Had Succeeded?????

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  • WHAT IF?????.....Operation Barbarossa Had Succeeded?????

    And then Hitler revisited Operation SEALION in the spring of 1942?????

    Wouldn't the balance of Naval Orbats have been markedly less unfavourable to Germany?????

  • #2
    Originally posted by Duke William View Post
    And then Hitler revisited Operation SEALION in the spring of 1942?????

    Wouldn't the balance of Naval Orbats have been markedly less unfavourable to Germany?????
    My guess is, that it would be far, far, more unfavourable for Germany, by 1942 as the British War Economy would still be humming along at a full, wartime production mode, producing all of the ships, aircraft, guns, equipment and manpower needed to destroy any German Invasion attempt.

    Whereas, Germany would still be stumbling along with their weaker and divided, "guns and butter economy." Added to this equation, would be sizable numbers of American troops now arriving in the UK, plus an alerted and capable wartime, US Atlantic Fleet to help support them and numerous bomber and long range fighter aircraft arriving daily from the continental US.
    "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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    • #3
      RE: What If.. Operation Barbarossa Has Succeeded..

      If Germany had defeated Russia:

      A) The would have Russia's Oil fields..
      B) They would have Russia's Wheat fields...
      C) They would have Russia's man-power as conscripts to
      turn against England.
      D) They would have what ever Russian armaments were
      left that they could salvage to be of use to them.
      They might be able to send excess oil and steel to Japan,
      thus keeping the Japanese from being depleated of necessary
      stocks.
      E) A potential disaster for both England & America...

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      • #4
        Going along with johnbryan , America would probably send some carriers over to the atlantic.

        and ChuckW

        Plus more German troops, tanks, etc. could be moved to different fronts which would give the Germans a bigger chance to hold off the Allies or possibly go on the offensive to retake new and/or lost ground. After Britain was taken over The royalty and parlament would be moved to Canada and America would have to take on the Axis on with numerically limited Allies on two fronts.
        "You can tell a lot about a fella's character by whether he picks out all of one color or just grabs a handful." -explaining why Reagan liked to have a jar of jelly beans on hand for important meetings

        CO for 1st S.INC Shock Security Troop

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        • #5
          Let's keep it real

          The American "problems" in the relatively small Iraq should help in sobering up.

          Even if the Germans had succeeded in utterly destroying the Red army, controlling the soviet union is an entirely different matter and this would have diverted a major chunk of axis forces. It is as well likely that , with the soviet scorched earth policy any resources captured (oilfield etc..) would have required a long time to be productive again

          As for the potential success of Barbarossa, the German command was "lucky" to do as well as it did... The soviet defensive plan was flawed and soviet high command with the help of comrade Stalin did much to "help" the whermacht in the first 6 months of the war... As such Barbarossa was ill conceived, there was a lack of means to achieve stated goals and generally it was amateurish in nature.

          It is well for all of us that the Third Reich eventually failed.. Let's not fantasize about the axis taking over the world... Even if they had achieved greater success the axis powers would have eventually overstretched themselves

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          • #6
            history has the answer!

            if we are to ponder the relative merits of whether Sea Lion would have succeded or not , i believe there is a historical precedent we all would be wise to debate. And that is Operation Olympic , the American plan to invade Mainland Japan. the thought of having to fight through every village , faced with kamikazie attacks by civilians armed with nothing more than sharpened bamboo sticks , and the realization that the invasion could turn into something 100 times worse that Okinawa lead the US president to sanction the attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And this is my point, the British , unlike those on continentel Europr, have nowhere to run. It is the United Kingdom or the Atlantic. The germans could only seriously consider the invasion if they possessed atomic weapons. Sound far fetched? Maybe , but there is a historical precedent to guide us .

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            • #7
              Well first of all, let's just drop all this Sealion bullshit and get real.

              First off, if Barbarossa has worked, Hitler would have what he wanted. He never wanted Britain, and he wouldn't have busted a nut trying to take it. There, end of all that dumb ass musing about Sealion.

              If Russia fell, Japan wouldn't have had their troubles worrying about them, and chances are they would have done much better in the far east.

              But then again, if Europe became a "too bad, it's over" prospect, the US would have been able to say "screw it" to rescuing France (a totally unlikely propsect regardless of what any of you America can do anything types want to think) and they would have just put their all into Japan (who would get 100% of American industrial might now).

              That likely would mean The Japanese would be out of the Pacific EARLIER in a big way, and this would force the Japanese to grab what they could on the mainland before America arrived in Tokyo bay.

              So a German win in Russia, likely would screw up things for Japan. But no Russia in 42 likely means no allies in the Mediteranean, and Britain would probably end up watching their African assets disappear. This would mean that Aus and NZ might end up going back home with their troops and might actually be better for India Burma, and again, more bad news for Japan.

              Meanwhile back in England, the British would probably be realizing, that the French (whom they don't really give a damn about seriously) were not coming back any time soon. Germany would more or less unite all of mainland Europe, The Jews would largely disappear from history, and there would be quite the technological race between Germany and the US. The Germans would be doing just fine with rockets and jets, and the US would have the bomb.

              I suspect the cold war would be between a European German empire and The US much as it was between the Russians and the US. just slightly different players. No Nato, but then no Warsaw Pact. Just two large military powers butting heads.

              Japan, who knows, they would still end up with Macarthur probably
              But Korea wouldn't happen, and likely Vietnam would not occur. The US might scrap with Germany in Africa though.
              Last edited by LRB; 06 Aug 07, 07:25.
              Life is change. Built models for decades.
              Not sure anyone here actually knows the real me.
              I didn't for a long time either.

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              • #8
                Would Britain keep fighting without without US support? If not, then no operations in Norway to destroy German A-bomb work. So Germany might get the bomb.

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                • #9
                  I forgot to add; with Russia out of the way, the Communist Chinese wouldn't have as strong a backing or supplies. The Nationalists might eventually defeate them - *if* they can first defeate the Japanese.
                  All though, with no Russia to worry about, the Japanese might be able to add additional troops to the Chinese mainland for that fight.
                  But then, the old saying " The enemy of my enemy is my friend," might have both Chinese factions combining ( as they warily did in r.l. ) to fight the Japanese.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by grognard View Post
                    Would Britain keep fighting without without US support? If not, then no operations in Norway to destroy German A-bomb work. So Germany might get the bomb.
                    What is not well known, is German research into atomic weapons was totally in the wrong direction. How long it would take them to figure it out is unclear. Chances are better they would have ended up in a staring match much the way Russia and the US did. Now, whether the Germans would have managed restraint better than the Russians is unclear.
                    Life is change. Built models for decades.
                    Not sure anyone here actually knows the real me.
                    I didn't for a long time either.

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                    • #11
                      News to me, what sources support that?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by grognard View Post
                        News to me, what sources support that?
                        The Wiki article on Heisenberg is quite interesting although it raises more questions than it answers.
                        Signing out.

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                        • #13
                          Monty,

                          thanks for the source, you are right about more questions than answers, especially because another team was working on the bomb and because Heisenburg's own statements are unclear if not downright contradictory.

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                          • #14
                            Speer had a remark about the German nuclear bomb projects. In his book 'Inside the Third Reich' he wrote that the ammount of Chromium needed, to refine the Uranium and seperate the isotopes, exceeded the entire ammount available to Germany in 1944-45. I dont have a copy here on my shelf, but recall that Speer thought the industrial/manufactoring side of the project beyond the resources he could find, whatever Heisenberg or others could do on paper.

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                            • #15
                              One other minor point about the atomic bomb. The British had the project underway in 1941, and in simple terms handed it over to the US in 1942. Niels Bohr who the Brits sprung from Denmark, assorted refugee physicts from Europe, Canadian Uranium, were all in Brit hands and busy at work when the US was dragged into the war. The main obstacle to Britian building nuclear weapons would be the vast industrial plant required to refine the Uranium isotopes. It might have taken Britian two or three years longer to manage that part of it. I may be wrong here but Britian did complete its own A bomb manufactoring capability around 1947 or 48?

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