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What If: The Zimmerman Telegram.

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  • Half Pint John
    replied
    The German offensive was stopped by British Commonwealth and French troops, very few US troops saw action before the offensive was stopped

    http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/2marne.htm

    The Second Battle of the Marne marked the turning of the tide in World War I. It began with the last German offensive of the conflict and was quickly followed by the first allied offensive victory of 1918. The American Expeditionary Force with over 250,000 men fighting under overall French command played key roles both in the initial defense and the later advances. In the Second Battle of Marne with 30,000 killed and wounded, the United States started suffering casualties on the enormous scale usually associated with the battles of the Great War.
    Allied casualties during the 2nd Battle of the Marne were heavy: French (95,000), British (13,000) and United States (12,000). It is estimated that the German Army suffered an estimated 168,000 casualties and and marked the last real attempt by the Central Powers to win the First World War
    HP

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  • redcoat
    replied
    Originally posted by Marshal Murat View Post
    The Germans might not have reached Paris, but such leaps might push the UK over the edge, and into peace-talks.
    The German offensive was stopped by British Commonwealth and French troops, very few US troops saw action before the offensive was stopped
    The US industry might provide the back-up, ships, guns, artillery, along with troops that could be spared from the offensive into Mexico. Okay, the Texas Rangers and Pershing could deal with it
    The vast majority of the equipment used by the US forces in WW1 was provided by Britain and France
    It would have extended the war, in the end the war would be won by the US.
    and Britain and France, just like it was in reality

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  • Carl Schwamberg
    replied
    If I understand the summary of the 1915 1917 version of 'War Plan Black' ,war with Mexico was to take a distant second place to the main event in Germany. Mobilization for WP Black included posting a minimum of some 500,000 soldiers in the southwestern states in both combat unts and training camps. Offensive operations into Mexico were to be limited to one or two corps size groups, and only so far as they would not interfere with the plan for aiding the Allies in Europe.

    As it was approximatly one million US soldiers remained in the US for lack of transport to Europe. Neither were a significant number of prewar weapons and transport sent to Europe. the US Army in Europe was outfitted mostly with French artillery, horses, supply, ect... The artillery, horses, motor transport, ect... remaining in the US historically were more or less sufficient to outfit a corps for any necessary raids into Mexico. The Mecican armys were divided amoung several political factions, lacked the transport or logsitics expertise for large scale sustained field operations. While raiding across the border would have embarassed the clumsey & inexpreinced US Army the Mexican army lacked the ability for sustained operations across the Rio Grande.

    Assuming WP Black was executed as I understand it the US Army sent to Europe would not have been signiifcantly altered by a war with Mexico.

    Historical Trivia: The famous Gen Ridgeway of WWII, spent WWI as a First Lt commading a 300 man company of a infantry regiment in Texas during 1917 - 1918.

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  • Marshal Murat
    replied
    From what I understand, the 4 million, 4 corps, some large formations of German soldiers, plus Austrians and anyone else on the Russian Front would be shifted to the west, with new weapons and storm-trooper tactics.

    The Stormtroopers began their gestation in May 1915, when a unit known as Sturmabteilung Calsow (Calsow's Storm Unit) was formed.[1] Initially consisting of two combat engineer companies and a 37mm gun battery, it was enlarged in the autumn of 1915 through the addition of a machine gun platoon, trench mortar troop and flamethrower troop. The success of this experimental unit led to it being used as a training cadre for the creation of storm companies for each of the divisions of the Fifth Army. The success of these divisional storm companies at Verdun in 1916 led to Ludendorff to order the creation of such companies for all the German Armies. The German Stormtroopers were also used by Adolf Hitler's Nazi Party in World War II as special force squads.

    With the withdrawal of Russia from World War I, the Germans were able to reinforce the Western Front with troops from the Eastern Front. This allowed them to take units out of the line and train in Hutier tactics (after Oskar von Hutier) to infiltrate and take trenches.

    [edit] Methods

    The methods developed to assault trenches during World War I before 1918 usually started with a lengthy artillery barrage all along the line followed by an assault from massed lines of infantry. Hutier suggested an alternate approach which consisted of these basic steps, combining some previous and some new attacks in a complex strategy:

    1. A short artillery bombardment, featuring heavy shells mixed with numerous poison gas projectiles would concentrate on neutralizing the enemy front lines, but not to destroy them.
    2. Under a creeping barrage, German shock troops (Sturmbatallione) would move forward and infiltrate the Allied defenses at previously identified weak points. They would avoid combat whenever possible and attempt to destroy or capture enemy headquarters and artillery strongpoints.
    3. After the shock troops had done their job, German Army units, heavily equipped with machine guns, mortars and flamethrowers, would make heavy attacks along narrow fronts against any Allied strongpoints the shock troops missed. When the artillery was in place, officers could direct the fire wherever it was needed to accelerate the breakthrough.
    4. In the last stage of the assault, regular infantry would mop up any remaining Allied resistance.

    The new assault methods involved men rushing forwards in small groups using whatever cover was available and laying down covering fire for other groups in the same unit as they moved forwards. The new tactics, which were intended to achieve tactical surprise, were to attack the weakest parts of an enemy's line, bypass his strongpoints and to abandon the futile attempt to have a grand and detailed plan of operations controlled from afar. Instead, junior leaders could exercise initiative on the spot. Any enemy strong points which had not been over-run by stormtroopers could be attacked by second echelon troops following the stormtroopers.

    [edit] German 1918 Spring Offensive

    On March 21, 1918 Germany launched a major offensive, "Operation Michael", against British Empire forces, using the new methods and tactics. Four successive German offensives followed, that of May 27 and for the first time in 4 years the stalemate of trench warfare was broken. However the German advance had stalled by July and the Allies began their Hundred Days Offensive.
    Wiki on Stormtroopers
    The Germans might not have reached Paris, but such leaps might push the UK over the edge, and into peace-talks.
    The US industry might provide the back-up, ships, guns, artillery, along with troops that could be spared from the offensive into Mexico. Okay, the Texas Rangers and Pershing could deal with it
    It would have extended the war, in the end the war would be won by the US.

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  • Daemon of Decay
    replied
    Originally posted by Marshal Murat View Post
    Germany could have swept the opposition in France and Italy, but then where would they go?
    Britain would have the link to the US. Germany could either go to Egypt (Even less ideal terrain), or Mesopotamia.
    Swept the oposition?

    I don't really think that was very probable in 1917. . .

    We don't that Germany could have blitzed their way to Paris in the time it took US forces to reach Europe.

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  • Half Pint John
    replied
    Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
    ...and that's another reason why it would have beena good thing the Central Powers had won ww1.
    Then you have never been to Weinerwald or you might have another opinion of one of the US's gastronomic delights.


    HP

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  • piero1971
    replied
    Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
    Well,............at least Slug would have a lot more Taco Bells he could go to.


    ...and that's another reason why it would have beena good thing the Central Powers had won ww1.

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  • Half Pint John
    replied
    Originally posted by johnbryan View Post
    The US would probably have taken over the remainder of Mexico and "Manifest Destiny" would have been extended south to Central America. Hey, look at the bright side. The border down there would be a whole lot smaller than it is today..
    Well,............at least Slug would have a lot more Taco Bells he could go to.

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  • johnbryan
    replied
    Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
    The US military went to Mexico City once and got AZ/NM/CA. What would have been selected the second time? Chances are the US would have gotten to Europe much later and then, what help could Germany provided to Mexico? Mexico played it smart.

    HP
    The US would probably have taken over the remainder of Mexico and "Manifest Destiny" would have been extended south to Central America. Hey, look at the bright side. The border down there would be a whole lot smaller than it is today..

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  • piero1971
    replied
    well had Mexican gov. been silly.... and went to war... perhaps the result is that the US would have been bogged down in Mexico for a few years (or decade?) (and perhaps gained a few more states in the end) but in europe, the war would have continues further - perhaps tilting to the Central Powers advantage as France and britain were exhausted without the certainty that US help would ensure them final victory.

    but it's not entirely sure how 1919 would go. Socialist revolutions may loom in every country, because of war wearyness.

    or France, Britain, Austria and Germany, recognising that Socialist revolution was more a danger to their regimes than each other, would have stopped war and supported the whites in Russia.

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  • Marshal Murat
    replied
    Germany could have swept the opposition in France and Italy, but then where would they go?
    Britain would have the link to the US. Germany could either go to Egypt (Even less ideal terrain), or Mesopotamia.

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  • Half Pint John
    replied
    The US military went to Mexico City once and got AZ/NM/CA. What would have been selected the second time? Chances are the US would have gotten to Europe much later and then, what help could Germany provided to Mexico? Mexico played it smart.

    HP

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  • Lanc Toreador
    started a topic What If: The Zimmerman Telegram.

    What If: The Zimmerman Telegram.

    As I am sure many of you will know, just before WW1, (January 1917 to be exact) German Foreign Secretary Arthur Zimmerman sent a telegram to Mexico proposing that if war were to break out between Germany and the United States, Mexico would enter the war on Germany's side. In return for this, Germany would finance Mexico's efforts against the US, and return the lost Mexican territories of Texas, Arizona and New Mexico. Ultimately the telegram was intercepted and decoded by the British, but what if they had failed, the telegram had been approved, rather than declined, and the plan put into action?

    Below is the content of the Zimmerman Telegram:

    On the first of February, we intend to begin unrestricted submarine warfare. In spite of this, it is our intention to endeavour to keep the United States of America neutral.

    In the event of this not succeeding, we propose an alliance on the following basis with Mexico: That we shall make war together and make peace together. We shall give generous financial support, and an understanding on our part that Mexico is to reconquer the lost territory in New Mexico, Texas, and Arizona. The details of settlement are left to you.

    You are instructed to inform the President [of Mexico] of the above in the greatest confidence as soon as it is certain that there will be an outbreak of war with the United States and suggest that the President, on his own initiative, invite Japan to immediate adherence with this plan; at the same time, offer to mediate between Japan and ourselves.

    Please call to the attention of the President that the ruthless employment of our submarines now offers the prospect of compelling England to make peace in a few months.

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