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So.....What IF Operation Sealion Was Launched

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  • So.....What IF Operation Sealion Was Launched

    & by some weird quirk of happenstance, after approximately 3 straight months of battle on English Soil, in The Air & on The Sea, England Surrendered to Germany?????

    What Then?????

  • #2
    Originally posted by Duke William View Post
    & by some weird quirk of happenstance, after approximately 3 straight months of battle on English Soil, in The Air & on The Sea, England Surrendered to Germany?????

    What Then?????
    With many of Germany's best troops dead, incapacitated or otherwise engaged, Josef Stalin orders the Red Army to invade Eastern Europe. We all now speak Russian and write in Cyrillic.
    Signing out.

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    • #3
      YEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS another Sealion what if!!!

      ducking for cover!
      "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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      • #4
        Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
        YEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS another Sealion what if!!!

        ducking for cover!
        There's an interesting thread up on the WW2 'Battles and Campaigns' section that deals with 'Operation Sealion' in some detail. Would you like the link?
        Signing out.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Duke William View Post
          & by some weird quirk of happenstance, after approximately 3 straight months of battle on English Soil, in The Air & on The Sea, England Surrendered to Germany?????

          What Then?????
          Read Len deighton's "SS-GB" for an alternate history crime story in just this kind of background.

          - Soviet Russia and Germany negotiate the right for the Russian fleet to base at Scapa Flow

          - Scotland Yard works under authority of the SS and hunts down British resistance networks

          - Rationing hits British population as it has hit every other occupied nation

          - The Royals are held "under protective custody" in Balmoral - the custody being a metter of prestige for which both Army and SS compete.

          - A British Admiral sails to Canada with a carrier and some escort ships and becomes head of the British government-in-exile

          - Jews and other "non-desirable" elements of the British society are rounded up by the Germans, with the help of British police, to be sent to camps.

          Other consequences, though not depicted in the book, could be :

          - South Africa negociates peace with Germany (The National Party would have felt right at home with the Third Reich's racial policies, and actually Sa's entry into WW2 was opposed by the National Party who then left the governmental coalition it had formed with the South African Party )

          - Without a Churchill to symbolize defiant resistance to Nazism, and tensions rising quickly in Asia, the United States remain neutral (unless Hitler is crazy enough to still declare war on the USA on December the 11th, 1941, if England was already on its knees ?)

          - Ireland probably falls into Germany's orbit, and may make noises about getting the 6 counties back.

          - Frictions between Italy and Germany (Hitler probably would refuse any colonial concession to Italy, because keeping Italy satisfied is less important than keeping England out of the war)

          - Resistance movements throughout Europe probably just flare up and dwindle, with no major power to supply them (even after an hypothetical Barbarossa, as Stalin would rather arm Soviet divisions than uncontrolled irregulars). That means collaborationnist governments in Europe will have more leeway (but will be of less importance to Berlin until a new Cold War begins)

          - Frictions between Germany and Japan. Germany probably does not support Japan in its takeover of British Eastern colonies, for the same reason it won't dislocate the Western colonies to satisfy Italy.

          - With a Third Reich working hard on keeping England on its side, or under control, I guess the 1945 world would see the confrontation of 3 groups and not 2 : Soviet Russia, Germany, and a victorious United States. Three competing groups of comparable might usually being the least stable situation, this Cold War would be more dangerous, with more tensions and more pressure on the three competitors. That could see Germany willing to allow limited rearmament of England and France (and the US allowing limited rearmament of Japan) as part of a German-dominated Pan-European alliance, while Latin America would be courted (and maybe used for wars by proxy) by all three powers.
          Last edited by Atlantic Friend; 27 Jul 07, 05:01.

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          • #6
            I concurr with this, if the invasion is successful!
            "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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            • #7
              Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
              I concurr with this, if the invasion is successful!
              However from what we uncovered about the German capabilities, plans and resources and the corresponding British capabilities, plans and resources we know that any German attempt at Sealion was doomed to fail.

              From the official German plan we can estimate that the first wave divisions are destroyed in total by the RN and RAF in the channel. The paratroopers would be destroyed as well by the commonwealth forces on English soil. That is about 10 full divisions plus several tank battalions and other corps troops. Two full German armies would cease to exist. The Luftwaffe would take an incredible beating trying to be everywhere at once. The only KM units left would be those not committed.

              British losses would be comparatively light. They would lose a couple of cruisers and a fair number of destroyers. However the 50US destroyers would easily make up the numbers.

              The political consequences of such a stupendous British victory are interesting to ponder. Would Stalin think he could take on Germany? Would the German generals stage a coup? Would there be a German civil war as the army and the SS fight for control? How would Japan and Italy react? Would the Italians seek peace? How would US public opinion change?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by AdrianE View Post
                However from what we uncovered about the German capabilities, plans and resources and the corresponding British capabilities, plans and resources we know that any German attempt at Sealion was doomed to fail.

                From the official German plan we can estimate that the first wave divisions are destroyed in total by the RN and RAF in the channel. The paratroopers would be destroyed as well by the commonwealth forces on English soil. That is about 10 full divisions plus several tank battalions and other corps troops. Two full German armies would cease to exist. The Luftwaffe would take an incredible beating trying to be everywhere at once. The only KM units left would be those not committed.

                British losses would be comparatively light. They would lose a couple of cruisers and a fair number of destroyers. However the 50US destroyers would easily make up the numbers.

                The political consequences of such a stupendous British victory are interesting to ponder. Would Stalin think he could take on Germany? Would the German generals stage a coup? Would there be a German civil war as the army and the SS fight for control? How would Japan and Italy react? Would the Italians seek peace? How would US public opinion change?
                OH BROTHER

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                • #9
                  You people think that RN and the RAF and the British Army were a unstopable fighting force. Once the germans wiped out the RAF they had to do that to launch an invasion the RN would have had a difficult time trying to enter the channel due to constant attacks by the luftwaffe. Even though the Germans would have taken major casualities on the beaches once they were inland and with tank support the battle was already won. Once German troops landed the British would never have a chance in hell of winning.

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                  • #10
                    Even assuming the RN càn`t operate in the channel in daylight, they have almost free reign at night to punch up embarkation and landing zones, supply depots and a little bombardment of troops just for fun. RN losses would likely be considered irrelevent, especially for units smaller than cruiser size.

                    The RN also has a significant fleet of submarines that no one has considered and the KM and LW had (especially at this point), zero ASW experience.

                    It`s one thing to put troops on a beach, it`s another to keep them supplied. Look at the lengths the landings at Normandy had to go through in an attempt to guarantee supplies.

                    (Here we go again: http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=38099 )
                    Last edited by Roadkiller; 26 Jul 07, 19:43.
                    Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                      There's an interesting thread up on the WW2 'Battles and Campaigns' section that deals with 'Operation Sealion' in some detail. Would you like the link?
                      Some detail??? Take my advice friend and never go there!!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by panzer192 View Post
                        You people think that RN and the RAF and the British Army were a unstopable fighting force.
                        Nope

                        Once the germans wiped out the RAF they had to do that to launch an invasion the RN would have had a difficult time trying to enter the channel due to constant attacks by the luftwaffe.
                        Point of fact. Luftwaffe bombs would have had a hard time sinking large RN vessels, if they hit them. They had some torpedo bombers but not enough. Bear in mind that the Luftwaffe were taking heavy losses in the Battle of Britain seriously degrading their capability to perform all of the operations required of them in support of 'Sealion'.

                        Even though the Germans would have taken major casualities on the beaches once they were inland and with tank support the battle was already won. Once German troops landed the British would never have a chance in hell of winning.
                        So the German Army was an unstoppable force?

                        Sorry, but all of the arguments presented have been debated to death (and beyond) on the Sealion thread I mentioned above. Let's stick with the What If the thread asks because rehashing them here will achieve nothing.
                        Signing out.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Atlantic Friend View Post

                          - Frictions between Italy and Germany (Hitler probably would refuse any colonial concession to Italy, because keeping Italy satisfied is less important than keeping England out of the war)
                          I disagree. The Italians could never be a threat to Germany so allowing Mussolini to turn the Med into a private lake as well as securing former British colonial possessions would be in Hitler's interests. Doubly true if Turkey could be brought into the Axis and the Iraqi/Iranian oil production secured for Axis use. If German losses in the 'Sealion' campaign were small and Stalin missed his opportunity to stab the Nazis in the back the strategic situation would favour the Germans if they use their allies appropriately.
                          Signing out.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Duke William View Post
                            So.....What IF Operation Sealion Was Launched & by some weird quirk of happenstance, after approximately 3 straight months of battle on English Soil, in The Air & on The Sea, England Surrendered to Germany?????

                            What Then?????
                            Sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows -
                            Everything that's wonderful is sure to come your way...!!!


                            " Reality is interpretation according to a scheme which we cannot escape "

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                            • #15
                              Actually, I think the RAF, the RN and the British Army would be well neigh unstoppable on home ground.

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