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The shutting off of 2 lend lease routes Barbarossa what if.

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  • The shutting off of 2 lend lease routes Barbarossa what if.

    I dunno how possible this is, so I figured I'd pitch it here.

    Archangel & Leningrad are made top priority instead of Moscow up north. Capture of Archangel through Finland closes sea route., ( Murmansk rail lines pass here ). Donetz basin & key cities like Kiev & Kharkov top priority in south. These are then tooled up for a/c & tank production, ( dunno what actually was done with these cities in the war ).

    Stalin puts out peace feeler Nov 41, signed Dec 41.

    German then send the works against Egypt & take suez, run into northern Iraq & close off allied supply route there, leaving trans Siberian railroad as last remaining supply route.

    Summer 42, Turkey allies with Germany & Germans use Turkish railroad to head into Armenia & on to Baku, and or attack through northern Iraq.



    The point mainly being closing main allied supply lines into Russia.

  • #2
    The Lend-Lease Act, passed by the U.S. Congress in March of 1941, gave President Franklin Roosevelt power to sell, transfer, lend or lease war supplies, including food, machinery and services, to nations whose defense was considered vital to the security of the United States during World War II. The program was originally intended for China and countries of the British Empire but in November, 1941, the USSR was included.


    About 70 percent of all U.S. aid reached the Soviet Union via the Persian Gulf through Iran and the remainder went across the Pacific to Vladivostok or across the North Atlantic to Murmansk.

    American aid to the Soviet Union between 1941 and 1945 amounted to 18 million tons of materiel at an overall cost of $10 billion ($120 billion modern) and 49 percent of it went through Vladivostok, the major Pacific port of Far Eastern Russia, Tuyll reported.

    Vladivostok was a valuable port for this program because Russia’s northern ports of Arkhangelsk and Murmansk were attacked by Nazi Germany and many of the lend-lease shipments were lost.

    In 1942-1944 the Soviet Union chartered about 120 American ships and 50 U.S. tankers, and to protect these vessels from attack by Japan in the wake of its December 1941 strafing of Pearl Harbor, American crews sailed under the Soviet hammer and sickle flag. When lend-lease shipments arrived at Vladivostok they were stored both in port terminals and in warehouses on Portovaya and Verkhne-Portovaya streets, then they were conveyed by train along the Trans-Siberian Railroad to points west. During the war the port of Vladivostok handled four times more cargo than Murmansk and Far Eastern railroad traffic was four times greater than the rest of nation.
    Maybe something new. Many forget or don't even know about the North Pacific Route. No movies were made.

    HP
    "Ask not what your country can do for you"

    Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

    you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Half Pint View Post
      Maybe something new. Many forget or don't even know about the North Pacific Route. No movies were made.

      HP

      Exactly !

      The 2 most productive Lend-Lease routes, in terms of tonnage shipped, were the North Pacific route and the Persian Gulf route, in that order.
      Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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      • #4
        I mentioned the pacific route, Trans Siberian railroad.



        "About 70 percent of all U.S. aid reached the Soviet Union via the Persian Gulf through Iran"

        & this would be cut off in this scenario.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Purple fang View Post
          I mentioned the pacific route, Trans Siberian railroad.



          "About 70 percent of all U.S. aid reached the Soviet Union via the Persian Gulf through Iran"
          Wrong.

          As HP mentioned, almost 50% of all Allied Lend-Lease shipment were sent via the North Pacific route; another 28% IIRC was sent via the Persian Gulf; hence the 2 most productive Lend-Lease routes.
          Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

          Comment


          • #6
            This was from hp's link above. Therefore, hp mentioned it.

            About 70 percent of all U.S. aid reached the Soviet Union via the Persian Gulf through Iran and the remainder went across the Pacific to Vladivostok or across the North Atlantic to Murmansk.



            Alaskan highway...

            Although it was completed on October 28, 1942 and its completion was celebrated at Soldier's Summit on November 21 (and broadcast by radio, the exact outdoor temperature censored due to wartime concerns), the "highway" was not usable by general vehicles until 1943.


            The flow of supplies to Russia from this route did not materialize til very late 42. The other routes were active in 41. Which insofar as this scenario is concerned, eliminates it as a target for initial phase of Barbarossa, June 41 to Dec 41. It would become relevant if Soviets hang on til Dec 42/Jan 43.
            Last edited by Purple fang; 23 Jun 07, 07:57.

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            • #7
              Questions to be answered is why was Iran so heavily utilized. Closer? I doubt it. Probably in miles it was the most distance from US. Large land mass to build facilities and weather considerations, add that better/large ground road and rail net? How much of this COULD have been picked up by Russian Far East facilities?

              What would have been a bigger blow to Russia was the loss of the oilfields. Only so much POL can be transported through even the biggest ports. Much of the LL shipments into Iran was made up of Locos, rolling stock and rails for the expansion of the Russia system. Would this have gone in to Vladivostok. and 4 or even six tracked that route? Much further to the Ural factories and the front lines?

              ALL question marks!!!!

              HP
              "Ask not what your country can do for you"

              Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

              you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

              Comment


              • #8
                There are detailed charts and tables to be had here if anyone wants to do the analysis.
                Signing out.

                Comment


                • #9
                  It's very interesting. Most vehicles went through Iran. & Murmansk/Archangel run was 1st route to open, followed by Iran.

                  1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 Total
                  Northern ports 0.4 17.0 8.3 33.6 12.8 72.1
                  Iran — 10.1 58.9 92.6 19.4 181.0
                  Far Eastern ports — 5.4 27.9 13.4 12.8 59.5
                  Totals 0.4 32.5 95.1 139.6 45.0 312.6

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Purple fang View Post
                    This was from hp's link above. Therefore, hp mentioned it.

                    About 70 percent of all U.S. aid reached the Soviet Union via the Persian Gulf through Iran and the remainder went across the Pacific to Vladivostok or across the North Atlantic to Murmansk.



                    Alaskan highway...

                    Although it was completed on October 28, 1942 and its completion was celebrated at Soldier's Summit on November 21 (and broadcast by radio, the exact outdoor temperature censored due to wartime concerns), the "highway" was not usable by general vehicles until 1943.


                    The flow of supplies to Russia from this route did not materialize til very late 42. The other routes were active in 41. Which insofar as this scenario is concerned, eliminates it as a target for initial phase of Barbarossa, June 41 to Dec 41. It would become relevant if Soviets hang on til Dec 42/Jan 43.


                    I don't know from where you're getting your figures, but they don't march these.

                    http://www.o5m6.de/Routes.html
                    Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Not my figures, came from HP's link. The Monty chart likely more accurate.

                      http://www.o5m6.de/Routes.html

                      The figures on vehicles are from the link you just posted.


                      LEND-LEASE MOTOR VEHICLES IMPORTED
                      by Arrival point — Overall Entry (in thousands)
                      Source : Vorsin
                      1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 Total
                      Northern ports 0.4 17.0 8.3 33.6 12.8 72.1
                      Iran — 10.1 58.9 92.6 19.4 181.0
                      Far Eastern ports — 5.4 27.9 13.4 12.8 59.5
                      Totals 0.4 32.5 95.1 139.6 45.0 312.6
                      Last edited by Purple fang; 23 Jun 07, 14:47.

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                      • #12
                        a question on the North Pacific route: were the ships flying Russian banners to avoid beeing attacked by Japan forces, or was there some deal between Japan, US and Russia?
                        "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                        • #13
                          I think the Japanese sunk some ships in the area. Not well read on it. Did find this

                          08/27 1941 Wed. Japan protests shipment of United States goods to Vladivostok
                          through Japanese waters.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
                            a question on the North Pacific route: were the ships flying Russian banners to avoid beeing attacked by Japan forces, or was there some deal between Japan, US and Russia?
                            The ships had USSR flags and crews. I dont know details about Japan sinking any of these on purpose. Some may have been sunk by accident as japan and the US occasionally fought in the northern waters. Many were also lost in the severe weather of the northern route. Some were wrecked on the Oregon and Washington coasts and susposedlly a cemetary in that area has some drowned Soviet sialors buried there. More wer lost across the Pacific.

                            Some of those same freight ships probablly carried cargo to and from Japan. The USSR continued to trade various items with Japan right up its DoW in August 1945. Back in 1977 I met a former US submarine crewman named Montgomery who claimed his boat had sunk some of them in late 1944 or 1945.

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