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Market Garden: Alterations

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  • Market Garden: Alterations

    I'm watching my new Airborne documentry, Geronimo. It brought out a theory, that I hold true. What if the 82nd Airborne, in September '44 a crack outfit with the 504th PIR in the division fold again, had been given the objectives at Arnhem, instead of British 1st Airborne. Not to say anything negative about Brit 1st AB, but they weren't really at the level the 82nd AB was at, right then. The carpet was laid in accordance to skill, I presume, as the 101st AB had the closest objective, followed by the 82nd Ab, then the British. My thoughts are, between an ego-centric Brit plan, and conservtive American doctrine, did the Operation fail because the "right tool" was not used for the job?
    55
    Yes
    16.36%
    9
    No
    69.09%
    38
    The 101st should have been sent to Arnhem
    9.09%
    5
    Another Parachute outfit should have been sent (Brit 6th AB, US 17th AB, US 11th AB, ect.)
    5.45%
    3
    "This life..., you know, "the life." Youíre not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you donít shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

    BoRG

  • #2
    I think the 6th British Airborne should have been sent. They all ready had one jump under there belt.
    The 82nd was just fine were it was.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Col. Dyess View Post
      I think the 6th British Airborne should have been sent. They all ready had one jump under there belt.
      The 82nd was just fine were it was.
      My good Colonel Dyess, by your theory of the 6th Brit AB having one jump, shouldn't the 3 Jumps of the 82nd AB be more of a qualifier? It may not have been one bridge too far if they had employed the 82nd Airborne farther up the road. After all, the 101st AB, even behind schedule, had beaten 30th Corps to the link up. My proposition is, use the 82nd AB in Arnhem, the 1st Brit AB in Nijmagen, and the 101st AB was just fine where it was.

      "This life..., you know, "the life." Youíre not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you donít shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

      BoRG

      Comment


      • #4
        All other things being equal I donít think it would have made a difference.
        Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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        • #5
          Under the theory of using the best tool for the job, the 101st should have been used...cracking the egg in the middle results in a true bloody mess!
          The free world knows, out of the bitter wisdom of experience, that vigilance and sacrifice are the price of liberty.
          Dwight D. Eisenhower
          April 16, 1953

          Comment


          • #6
            Huh?

            Originally posted by AirborneBob View Post
            Under the theory of using the best tool for the job, the 101st should have been used...cracking the egg in the middle results in a true bloody mess!
            What makes you think the 101st was the right outfit for long range, extended operations in well defended enemy territory?



            "This life..., you know, "the life." Youíre not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you donít shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

            BoRG

            Comment


            • #7
              it would have changed something:

              more US dead and prisoners rather than british and Polish.
              "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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              • #8
                Well I went for the 101st based on 82nd's relatively lacklustre performance at Nijmegen. But the drops were so compromised at Arnhem that it seems unlikely that it would have made a significant difference to the end result of the Operation.
                Signing out.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Not that this proves the point one way or the other, but 'Airborne Assault: Red Devils Over Arnhem' (computer game released by Battlefront several years back) contained a scenario where 101st Airborne dropped where 1st Airborne did historically. It was just as difficult to succeed no matter which force you played with.
                  Signing out.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Don't forget the two SS panzer divisions would still be there..
                    Never Fear the Event

                    Admiral Lord Nelson

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by mike brown View Post
                      Don't forget the two SS panzer divisions would still be there..
                      Yes but they were just refitting and what tanks they had could hardly move anyway so said intelligence.
                      Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedy. -- Ernest Benn

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                      • #12
                        so what mauled the british?
                        Never Fear the Event

                        Admiral Lord Nelson

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                        • #13
                          This has been tested time and again by military staffs (as noted in another thread) and the only change that seemed to work was two drops on the first day. One advantage the 1st AB had over the US divs was heavier AT guns (the 17pdr) attached to the divisional HQ. US or Brits, 1st, 101st or 82nd,...it would have made little difference. There were just too many delays in getting to Arnhem and the Germans reinforced a relatively undefended sector too quickly.
                          Last edited by The Purist; 02 Jun 07, 13:00.
                          The Purist

                          Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by mike brown View Post
                            so what mauled the british?
                            Not the SS divisions. 9th SS lost half of its remaining vehicles to Frosts force when they tried to cross the bridge!

                            Truth is that 1st Airborne was dropped too far from its objectives, did not move quickly enough when dropped and allowed itself to get caught up in pointless minor firefights when what SS troops there were in the vicinity set up blocking positions. After that the Germans were able to bring up reinforcements, prevent any further attempts to get more men to Frosts group at the bridge and eventually pin the lightly armed paras into a shrinking cordon around Oosterbeek where the artillery pounded them relentlessly. Even then they held out for much longer than they were supposed to as XXX Corps crept up to them. No wonder they took such heavy casualties!!
                            Signing out.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by P.V. Mann III View Post
                              My proposition is, use the 82nd AB in Arnhem, the 1st Brit AB in Nijmagen, and the 101st AB was just fine where it was.

                              Based on what really happened the 1st AB would probably fail to reach there objectives at Nijmagen and the 82nd would be out on a limb at Arnhem even if they reach they capture there objectives.
                              Also we must remember that the 82nd failed to capture the bridge at Nijmagen on time.

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