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  • #91
    Originally posted by allsirgarnet View Post
    Paul...

    Thanks for the info.

    Can you or anyone list their actual objectives (as planned) for the first 24 hours and then after please?

    Gary

    Hope this helps



    Even from this map PM III words are corroberated. Judging from the DZs/LZs the Grave bridge seems to have high priority, Waal bridges much less so.
    Last edited by Colonel Sennef; 30 Dec 07, 12:58.
    BoRG

    You may not be interested in War, but War is interested in You - Leon Trotski, June 1919.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Paul Mann III View Post
      504th PIR - Bridges at Maas River, Bridge at Grave, secondary canal bridges, Vehgel Highway South

      505th PIR - Groesbeek, & surrounding heights, Mook-325th LZ's, Reichswald border

      508th PIR - Groesbeek, Wyler, Beek, Nijmagen Bridge

      Gavin was instructed by Browning that securing the Nijmagen Bridge would be considered "secondary," to be handled after clearing his other objectives. All of the 82nd Airborne Division objectives for Day One where acheived, and then the 1/508th PIR bogged down en route to the Bridge. Gavin lamented in later interviews, feeling he'd botched up the plan by sending the 508th to handle what "should have been obvious, that the 504th was much better prepared and in better position" than the 508th. The plan, however, stated that the Bridge would be taken "at best opportunity," and Gavin felt the 508th PIR had a fortunate chance at the bridge, but was wrong....
      Paul...

      Dont you find it astonishing given the main 'theme' of the MG operation that on the first day, the main Nijmagen Bridge was classed as a secondary objective for a single battalion?

      Your info confirms what i remember from playing the huge SPI game of the campaign. Thinking back to the game i seem to remember a jeep squadron 'unit' in one of the American Divs? Is this right or is my memory off a little?

      I'm also reminded that according to the game Nijmagen was largely undefended for most of the first day, and only got its first real defence when an SS force arrived from Arnhem (Kraftts Recon?).

      Clarification on my memory please anyone?

      thanks

      Gary

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      • #93
        Originally posted by captainsennef View Post
        Hope this helps



        Even from this map PM III words are corroberated. Judging from the DZs/LZs the Grave bridge seems to have high priority, Waal bridges much less so.
        Thanks Jeroen...

        Have you got any info on the state of the Dutch resistance at the time of the operation. I remember reading way back about the problems SOE had in 1942? with double agents etc. and how this lead to poor cooperation between the allies and the resistance.

        I also remember something about the Dutch resistance having control of the Arnhem telephone exchange/system during the battle and how this might have helped 1st AB communications if used?

        Gary

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        • #94
          Originally posted by allsirgarnet View Post
          Dont you find it astonishing given the main 'theme' of the MG operation that on the first day, the main Nijmagen Bridge was classed as a secondary objective for a single battalion?
          Sad, but true, and Gavin agreed. Even a genius can be wrong. A few things played against him though. The "guide" who led 1/508 into the city was a suspected double agent, she was supposed to lead them around the city edge, and took them right into the center of the trap. Gavin compounded the problem by sending 3/508 into the fray, solidified the German hold on his troops, and gave away any last suprise that the Bridge was his objective.

          Originally posted by allsirgarnet View Post
          Your info confirms what i remember from playing the huge SPI game of the campaign. Thinking back to the game i seem to remember a jeep squadron 'unit' in one of the American Divs? Is this right or is my memory off a little?
          I couldn't say, never played it. Ridgway got around in a jeep....


          Originally posted by allsirgarnet View Post
          I'm also reminded that according to the game Nijmagen was largely undefended for most of the first day, and only got its first real defence when an SS force arrived from Arnhem (Kraftts Recon?).
          Not sure, but Kurt Student ordered some sort of SS Panzer Battalion into Nijmagen as soon he heard about the 1/508 in the city....
          Last edited by Paul Mann III; 30 Dec 07, 13:12.
          "This life..., you know, "the life." Youíre not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you donít shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

          BoRG

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by allsirgarnet View Post
            Thanks Jeroen...

            Have you got any info on the state of the Dutch resistance at the time of the operation. I remember reading way back about the problems SOE had in 1942? with double agents etc. and how this lead to poor cooperation between the allies and the resistance.

            I also remember something about the Dutch resistance having control of the Arnhem telephone exchange/system during the battle and how this might have helped 1st AB communications if used? Gary
            ASG, from the top of my head: the difficulties of the Dutch resistance with infiltrations were over by 1944. Mind you, like many Allied countries, the Dutch had to start the build up of their war making capacity from scratch, compounded by the fact that by the time they had mastered its aspects their country was occupied. Unlike its neighbours, the Netherlands had not been in war since Napoleon. Initial Dutch resistance was quite amateurish, driven by an outrage of the morally upset decent burghers and could relatively easy be infiltrated and rolled up by the Gestapo, resistance members and SOE agents alike. This was the infamous 'Englandspiel'/'England Game' of 1942. The Dutch learned from a hard school that it took more than just moral outrage to be effective resistance fighters. By 1944 they were quite effective. However relations with SOE/Allies had been soured by the Englandspiel and had not healed yet in 1944.

            RE 2/ Correct: the resistance in Arnhem controlled the telephone network and could have established contact between 1 AB HQ and XXX Corps or with Lt Col Frost at the bridge. Unfortunately 1 AB Div Intelligence officers had been instructed not to rely on the Dutch resistance because of the 1942 , so this opportunity to coordinate provided by the resistance was not used.
            BoRG

            You may not be interested in War, but War is interested in You - Leon Trotski, June 1919.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by captainsennef View Post
              ASG, from the top of my head: the difficulties of the Dutch resistance with infiltrations were over by 1944. Mind you, like many Allied countries, the Dutch had to start the build up of their war making capacity from scratch, compounded by the fact that by the time they had mastered its aspects their country was occupied. Unlike its neighbours, the Netherlands had not been in war since Napoleon. Initial Dutch resistance was quite amateurish, driven by an outrage of the morally upset decent burghers and could relatively easy be infiltrated and rolled up by the Gestapo, resistance members and SOE agents alike. This was the infamous 'Englandspiel'/'England Game' of 1942. The Dutch learned from a hard school that it took more than just moral outrage to be effective resistance fighters. By 1944 they were quite effective. However relations with SOE/Allies had been soured by the Englandspiel and had not healed yet in 1944.

              RE 2/ Correct: the resistance in Arnhem controlled the telephone network and could have established contact between 1 AB HQ and XXX Corps or with Lt Col Frost at the bridge. Unfortunately 1 AB Div Intelligence officers had been instructed not to rely on the Dutch resistance because of the 1942 , so this opportunity to coordinate provided by the resistance was not used.
              Thanks mate...

              From the research and reading ive done (from memory) about the Dutch resistance after the battle, both their and the Dutch peoples sacrifices and actions in the battle more than healed any old wounds there might have been.

              This subject of this link says it all in terms of being allies...

              http://www.airbornemuseum.com/

              Gary

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              • #97
                I can't remember if I uploaded this already...

                "This life..., you know, "the life." Youíre not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you donít shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

                BoRG

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                  I think this is flawed logic. For an operation like M-G it's essential that the roads and bridges leading up to the final objective are secured to allow passage for the relieving ground forces. 82nd, arguments over their relative performance aside, were presented with the most difficult task of the three airborne divisions. Given that they struggled to achieve their objectives in the historical battle it would have been foolish to send them to Arnhem and have one, or both, of the other divisions fail so condemning 82nd to a extremely costly breakout attempt or an ignominious surrender.

                  Very basically, the operational deployment of the three divisions was correct even if it was tactically flawed.
                  That makes the most sense to me; agreed completely.
                  "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by holly6 View Post
                    This has to be the kicker to any question about what unit would have succeeded. If, the Panzers were there, if the drop was missed, if the hook-up was delayed, it seems you are just changing the names of the causualties.
                    2 cents.
                    Spot on!
                    "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Paul Mann III View Post
                      I'm watching my new Airborne documentry, Geronimo. It brought out a theory, that I hold true. What if the 82nd Airborne, in September '44 a crack outfit with the 504th PIR in the division fold again, had been given the objectives at Arnhem, instead of British 1st Airborne. Not to say anything negative about Brit 1st AB, but they weren't really at the level the 82nd AB was at, right then. The carpet was laid in accordance to skill, I presume, as the 101st AB had the closest objective, followed by the 82nd Ab, then the British. My thoughts are, between an ego-centric Brit plan, and conservtive American doctrine, did the Operation fail because the "right tool" was not used for the job?
                      Nice idea for a thread, mate, and it has brought out some very interesting discusson.
                      "England expects that every man will do his duty!" (English crew members had better get ready for a tough fight against the combined French and Spanish fleets because that's what England expects! However, Scotland, Wales and Ireland appear to expect nothing so the Scottish, Welsh and Irish crew members can relax below decks if they like!)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by panther3485 View Post
                        That makes the most sense to me; agreed completely.
                        Thank you, even sixteen months after I wrote those words. It has to be said that I've read nothing since then that makes me change that opinion.
                        Signing out.

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                        • General John Frost, after being liberated from a German POW camp by Patton's 3rd Army in 1945 remained attached with them for several weeks. He was able to observe the difference in the two Allied Armies tactics and how the Americans overcame any and all German opposition. He later said that had Patton's 3rd Army been given the task to relieve the Paras at Arnhem, he had no doubt that they would have done so.
                          "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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                          • Originally posted by johnbryan View Post
                            General John Frost, after being liberated from a German POW camp by Patton's 3rd Army in 1945 remained attached with them for several weeks. He was able to observe the difference in the two Allied Armies tactics and how the Americans overcame any and all German opposition. He later said that had Patton's 3rd Army been given the task to relieve the Paras at Arnhem, he had no doubt that they would have done so.
                            Frost was a very bitter man. After all, his small force had succeeded where the rest of his division had failed and his feelings toward his fellow British soldiers, regular or airborne, are understandable. Nevertheless they are all they are.
                            Signing out.

                            Comment


                            • Had Patton gone charging up Hell's Highway he probably would have reached Arnhem given his disregard for his flanks and willingness to ignore logistics. Once there whatever corps he had accompanying him would have been cut off and destroyed. That would have been a good thing, at least in terms of the mythology that now surrounds that overrated boor.
                              Signing out.

                              Comment


                              • Although overrated, he was quite a good motivational leader in that his men
                                would jump through hoops for him don't ya think?
                                SPORTS FREAK/ PANZERBLITZ COMMANDER/ CC2 COMMANDER

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