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  • #46
    I'll repeat my grumpy view from all the other 'Alternative Market-Garden' discussions. The whole operation should have been aimed at securing Antwerp & its approaches as rapidly as possible. The Allies lacked the supplys to effectively exploit a sucessful Market-Garden. A couple corps making a narrow salient towards the German border is not going to accomplish much when five other Allied armys are stalled for lack of artillery ammunition and fuel.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
      With the bridge blown the drive to Arnhem would be considerably delayed if not totally stymied. No matter how experienced 82nd were operating cut-off and out-gunned they could not have survived for long enough to allow for another suitable crossing to be found or constructed. Now the vagaries of warfare mean that we can't say for certain but in your scenario it's probable that 82nd would have been destroyed at Arnhem - lack of supplies being a major factor.
      I never really said that the 82nd A/B could have made M-G a success, I just think they could've made it a "prettier" defeat" for the US.

      With that said, having read my grandfathers notes from Salerno, Anzio, and the Bulge, I can say that operating in a lack of supplies was the norm for the at least the 504th PIR and 505th PIR. Many of my grandfathers notes simply say that they have no food, no water, and little ammo, and continue to hold the line against mechanized SS forces. Many times people have figured the 82nd for dogmeat, and been wrong. Wasn't it a limey that told Ridgway and Gavin they'd lose at least 50% of their troopers at Normandy.

      It's funny to me, because people often line up to talk about how great the 101st A/B is, and how they can fix anything. Or how from any other country thinks that "their" Airborne are premier. Time and time again though, the All Americans prove the bean counters wrong. Of course someone will now say I'm biased for the 82nd because of my relations to them. To that know at all, wherever you're lurking, you're wrong. I'm related to people from plenty of famous outfits, but the 82nd Airborne is the one I advocate, for this deployment, in this mission, over any other unit in history.

      Even on this poll you have a few "confused" people who think the 101st Airborne could out perform the 82nd.

      Originally posted by KG_AirborneBob View Post
      Under the theory of using the best tool for the job, the 101st should have been used....


      Perhaps the 82nd could've made M-G a win, but my point was they could've out performed the British at Arnhem. As far as the Division being destroyed, they've been close enough, and always come back for more. Ask the 50 guys out of two whole Companies who survived from the fight at Chenuex....
      Last edited by Paul Mann III; 28 Dec 07, 13:23.
      "This life..., you know, "the life." You’re not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you don’t shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

      BoRG

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      • #48
        Like Full Monty pointed out...The drop zones pretty well doomed the Arnhem operation from the begining. I don't think the 82nd would have fared any better had they been stuck with the same drop zones.
        Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
          Like Full Monty pointed out...The drop zones pretty well doomed the Arnhem operation from the begining. I don't think the 82nd would have fared any better had they been stuck with the same drop zones.
          Why do you think that? That's what I'm asking. What qualifications did the British have to be dropped that far out, in comparison to the qualifications of the 82nd A/B. It seems odd to me, taking the new guys, and throwing them to the wolves. After all, the 101st A/B was fairly untested too, that's why they got the easy job. I don't understand what qualified the 1st Brit A/B, what makes it so obvious that no outfit could have out performed them.
          "This life..., you know, "the life." You’re not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you don’t shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

          BoRG

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Paul Mann III View Post
            Why do you think that? That's what I'm asking. What qualifications did the British have to be dropped that far out, in comparison to the qualifications of the 82nd A/B. It seems odd to me, taking the new guys, and throwing them to the wolves.
            Their 'qualifications' were that it was expected to be the easiest job - a 'cakewalk' into Arnhem where they could secure the bridge for XXX Corps to continue their advance North Eastwards. 82nd had, on paper at least, a tougher assignment at Nijmegen hence the decision to deploy them there. They *may* have performed better than 1st at Arnhem but let's not forget that 1st did have its share of very experienced paratroopers (Frost was more experienced than anyone in the 82nd) that, in part, compensated for the more 'green' members of the division. The difference between the two divisions was not as great as you like to imply, at least in terms of experience, and we could debate their relative combat effectiveness until Hell freezes over (or The Eagles release another album) and not reach a conclusion.
            Signing out.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Paul Mann III View Post
              Why do you think that? That's what I'm asking. What qualifications did the British have to be dropped that far out, in comparison to the qualifications of the 82nd A/B. It seems odd to me, taking the new guys, and throwing them to the wolves. After all, the 101st A/B was fairly untested too, that's why they got the easy job. I don't understand what qualified the 1st Brit A/B, what makes it so obvious that no outfit could have out performed them.
              I don't think it's so much a performance issue regarding the AB division assigned to Arnhem. The drop zones were too far away from the objectives...Plus the fact that the road from Eindhoven to Arnhem wasn't very well suited for a quick dash of XXX Corps to the rescue.

              The logistics of the entire operation were not good and they were particularly bad at Arnhem. Throw that in with the unexpectedly large numbers of veteran German troops in the area...I just don't see how swapping 82nd AB with British 1st AB would have altered the outcome.

              Frost's men gave the Germans a very bloody nose and held out a lot longer than the plan called for. But they were unable to fully secure the objectives and even if they did, XXX Corps couldn't get there in time.

              Even if 82nd AB had moved more quickly and seized the bridges at Arnhem and inflicted more casualties on the Germans…XXX Corps still wouldn’t have arrived in time. Who knows? If 101st AB or Br. 1st AB had been tasked with Nijmegen…maybe they would have failed. The Waal River crossing was one of the toughest battles in the campaign.

              Ike should have diverted the resources to Patton's drive to Aachen and on to the Saar.
              Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
                I'll repeat my grumpy view from all the other 'Alternative Market-Garden' discussions. The whole operation should have been aimed at securing Antwerp & its approaches as rapidly as possible. The Allies lacked the supplys to effectively exploit a sucessful Market-Garden. A couple corps making a narrow salient towards the German border is not going to accomplish much when five other Allied armys are stalled for lack of artillery ammunition and fuel.
                In hindsight yes, but like Guderian in Russia in 1941 the Allied High Command believed that their opponents were beaten and that they could afford to take liberties with logistics in order to press home their perceived advantage.
                Signing out.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by The Doctor View Post

                  Ike should have diverted the resources to Patton's drive to Aachen and on to the Saar.
                  Van Creveld would probably disagree with you. But that's for a different thread I feel.

                  Additionally the airborne troops placed very little burden on the overstretched Allied supply network in NWE. Being able to commit 3 divisions and one brigade extra to the campaign, all (supposedly) 'elite' (or close to) let's not forget directly from bases in England was an important factor in deciding the location of the 'push'.
                  Signing out.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                    Their 'qualifications' were that it was expected to be the easiest job - a 'cakewalk' into Arnhem where they could secure the bridge for XXX Corps to continue their advance North Eastwards. 82nd had, on paper at least, a tougher assignment at Nijmegen hence the decision to deploy them there.
                    You know, in retrospect, I guess on paper the 82nd A/B did have the tougher set of objectives. I never thought of it that way, because we have the benefit of knowing where it was most dangerous, unlike the planners.

                    Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                    They *may* have performed better than 1st at Arnhem but let's not forget that 1st did have its share of very experienced paratroopers (Frost was more experienced than anyone in the 82nd) that, in part, compensated for the more 'green' members of the division. The difference between the two divisions was not as great as you like to imply, at least in terms of experience....

                    I dunno, having a lot of "combat" experienced officers isn't the same as having troopers with campaigns under their belts. I'm a fan of Colonel Frost, but what kind of combat history did he have over the 82nd, a year or two, maybe? And I'm not impressed by North Africa, so I hope he was in Italy. What kind of combat veteran ratio did the whole outfit have? The 82nd A/B had alot of guys like Paul Mann Sr. in their NCO ranks, and that makes a difference in a fight....

                    North Africa
                    Sicily
                    Naples - Foggia
                    Anzio
                    Normandy

                    Rhineland (Holland)

                    Ardennes, Belgium
                    Central Germany
                    Berlin

                    Some of the fiercest fighting at the forefront of six major campaigns: Sicily, Naples-Foggia, Normandy, Rhineland, Ardennes, and Central Germany. -Phil Nordyke on the 82nd Airborne

                    Click image to see all the campaigns of the 504th PIR
                    Last edited by Paul Mann III; 28 Dec 07, 14:23.
                    "This life..., you know, "the life." You’re not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you don’t shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

                    BoRG

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Maybe people such as full monty can help with ww2 encyclopedic brains but I can hardly imagine that after 5 years of war the soldiers in the British 1st airborne were pea green and raw recruits. Bearing in mind that they held out for 9 days against armoured troops and said troops said the paras were unbelievable in their defence this hardly suggests they were inexperinced at fighting. Now bearing in mind what else went wrong with Market Garden Im a bit puzzled to why it is viewed a good alternative to drop 82nd airborne on arnhem and have them take a mauling aswell. For 1st airborne to have succeeded never mind 82nd you need to have a whole load of other factors to change.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by copenhagen View Post
                        Now bearing in mind what else went wrong with Market Garden Im a bit puzzled to why it is viewed a good alternative to drop 82nd airborne on arnhem and have them take a mauling aswell.
                        Simple math: British Paratroopers = 2,200
                        82nd Airborne Paratroopers = 7,250

                        More paratroopers, with more experience = a better chance to get out of Arnhem. That would, of course, go against the 82ndAirborne Division claim to have never given back any ground they took, but in the extreme, surely Gavin would've known what to do.
                        Last edited by Paul Mann III; 28 Dec 07, 14:39.
                        "This life..., you know, "the life." You’re not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you don’t shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

                        BoRG

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          2,200 troops are you suggesting that British 1st airborne dropped 2,200 troops on arnhem?! About 10,000 paras were dropped on Arnhem if i remember rightly.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Paul Mann III View Post
                            Simple math: British Paratroopers = 2,200
                            82nd Airborne Paratroopers = 7,250

                            More paratroopers, with more experience = a better chance to get out of Arnhem. That would, of course, go against the 82ndAirborne Division claim to have never given back any ground they took, but in the extreme, surely Gavin would've known what to do.
                            2,200 paratroopers?

                            You might be confusing British 1st Airborne Division with the 1st Parachute Brigade. Br. 1st AB consisted of 1st and 4th Para Brigades and 1st Air Landing Brigade...plus some attached units...About 10,000 troops.

                            Although it is true that Arnhem was the first action for the entire Division, the 1st Para Brigade had extensive experience in North Africa and Italy.
                            Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Paul Mann III View Post
                              Simple math: British Paratroopers = 2,200
                              82nd Airborne Paratroopers = 7,250
                              Are you being a little didactic with the definition of 'paratroopers'?

                              More paratroopers, with more experience = a better chance to get out of Arnhem. That would, of course, go against the 82ndAirborne Division claim to have never given back any ground they took, but in the extreme, surely Gavin would've known what to do.
                              Surrender?
                              Signing out.

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                              • #60
                                Yes they indeed fought for many years in Africa and Italy.

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