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  • Originally posted by Full Monty View Post


    Well, GAD is one division, 3rd Army is, well, an ARMY. So what are you saying? What did Georgie-Porgy actually face as his men cruised up to Bastogne?
    Hodges was good!
    The GAD was one division backed up by a number of other divisions. Patton faced Von Luttwitz's 47th Panzer Korps. The Panzer Lehr, 2nd Panzer and 26th VG Divisions. Later, the 15th Panzergrenadier Division was pitched into the fighting around Bastogne.

    Patton and Hodges both quietly jumped the Rhine River several days in advance of the accepted "main thrust" while another general was still lining up poses for his publicity photographs and holding long, endlessly droning monologues about what they were still facing on the far side of the river..
    "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by johnbryan View Post
      Differ all you like, but there was no aircover possible between the start of the Battle of the Bulge on 16 December through the 23rd of December. The whole Ardennes was socked in with a massive arctic weather front that reduced visibility and grounded all aircraft. The foggy weather finally began to clear and the first airdrops of supplies into Bastogne occurred on the 23rd of December. Allied fighter bomber attacks began savaging German supply lines at the same time.
      And when did Patton start moving?

      Re: "No Opposition in front of him." Pattons 3rd Army was shooting at somebody and not just burning up ammunition. You seem to be unable to grasp or come to terms with the fact that the 3rd Army successfully disengaged from actively fighting on one front, in order to attack in a wholy different direction within 48 hours of Patton's issued order.
      And what you can't grasp is that this wasn't something planned and executed in 48 hours.

      Small wonder that you guys lost your empire.
      That just shows how desperate your argument has become.
      Signing out.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DingBat View Post
        Can we leave the nationalistic ego behind and just debate based on facts?
        Certainly, but that knife cuts both ways.
        "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by johnbryan View Post
          The GAD was one division backed up by a number of other divisions.
          GAD had 43rd Wessex and, um, that's about it.

          Patton faced Von Luttwitz's 47th Panzer Korps. The Panzer Lehr, 2nd Panzer and 26th VG Divisions. Later, the 15th Panzergrenadier Division was pitched into the fighting around Bastogne.
          So your argument doesn't have substance. You compare apples with oranges.

          Patton and Hodges both quietly jumped the Rhine River several days in advance of the accepted "main thrust" while another general was still lining up poses for his publicity photographs and holding long, endlessly droning monologues about what they were still facing on the far side of the river..
          Exactly what are you trying to do here by making a cheap shot at a general you know full well I don't rate particularly highly? Or is it more jingoistic claptrap?
          Signing out.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by johnbryan View Post
            Certainly, but that knife cuts both ways.
            Given that you're the only one wielding it .....
            Signing out.

            Comment


            • If we can get away from the interminably dreary Patton arguments and back to the topic of the thread...

              I've scanned the pages here and the entire argument for the substitution of the 82nd is that it had 3 combat jumps under it's belt. Is that the entirety of the argument?

              A counter-argument for retaining the British up north was the Polish Parachute Brigade. If I'm not mistaken, this unit was equipped with British arms and trained in the British style. What problems might have arisen if this unit had been attached to an American division?

              Personally, the original posters "what if" seems a bit of national ego getting out of hand. I think the 82nd should feel fortunate they were able to avoid the assignment as it would have meant a lot of dead American paratroopers.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                And when did Patton start moving?
                And what you can't grasp is that this wasn't something planned and executed in 48 hours.
                No, but it was carried out in 48 hours. Two days before the Allied High Command met at Verdun, Patton asked his staff to draft three contingency plans for a possible change in battle scenerios. By the time of the meeting on 19 December, the wheels were already turning at 3rd Army HQ. Therefore, the plan was enacted 48 hours after Patton told Ike at Verdun that he could begin his attack with 2 Divisions in 48 hours, although the request was initially made by Patton at his HQ 2 days before that.

                I would still like to see another example of that magnatude taking place in so short a period of time in WWII.
                "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                  GAD had 43rd Wessex and, um, that's about it.

                  Exactly what are you trying to do here by making a cheap shot at a general you know full well I don't rate particularly highly? Or is it more jingoistic claptrap?
                  Just pulling yer' chain mate and seeing how long that it'd take for you to take the bait.
                  "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DingBat View Post
                    If we can get away from the interminably dreary Patton arguments and back to the topic of the thread...

                    I've scanned the pages here and the entire argument for the substitution of the 82nd is that it had 3 combat jumps under it's belt. Is that the entirety of the argument?
                    Afaik they had spent more time in combat than their contemporaries.

                    A counter-argument for retaining the British up north was the Polish Parachute Brigade. If I'm not mistaken, this unit was equipped with British arms and trained in the British style. What problems might have arisen if this unit had been attached to an American division?
                    I don't see why there would be a problem. They were an independent brigade within 1st Airborne Army so would have been expected to function with whatever force they were a part of.
                    Personally, the original posters "what if" seems a bit of national ego getting out of hand.
                    Paul's more a '82nd Airborne are the best' than 'Americans are the best' guy.
                    Signing out.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by johnbryan View Post
                      No, but it was carried out in 48 hours. Two days before the Allied High Command met at Verdun, Patton asked his staff to draft three contingency plans for a possible change in battle scenerios. By the time of the meeting on 19 December, the wheels were already turning at 3rd Army HQ. Therefore, the plan was enacted 48 hours after Patton told Ike at Verdun that he could begin his attack with 2 Divisions in 48 hours, although the request was initially made by Patton at his HQ 2 days before that.

                      I would still like to see another example of that magnatude taking place in so short a period of time in WWII.
                      Rather intriguingly MacDonald has Patton called by Bradley on the 16th. In their conversation Patton insisted that the German attack was a 'spoiler' but Bradley insisted that Patton transfer some of his forces to support Middleton. No wonder Patton could shift his forces quickly, he'd already been ordered to!
                      Signing out.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by johnbryan View Post
                        Just pulling yer' chain mate and seeing how long that it'd take for you to take the bait.
                        Answer the question.
                        Signing out.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by johnbryan
                          ...Re: "No Opposition in front of him." Pattons 3rd Army was shooting at somebody and not just burning up ammunition. You seem to be unable to grasp or come to terms with the fact that the 3rd Army successfully disengaged from actively fighting on one front, in order to attack in a wholy different direction within 48 hours of Patton's issued order.
                          .
                          C'mon John, when Patton's three divisions stepped off on Dec 23rd the main opposition consisted of a single parachute infantry division backed up by 12 assault guns. The attack organised at Patton's behest was little more than a frontal assault and it suffered accordingly. Bastogne was relieved long before major reinforcments reached the Germans at Bastogne and 4th AD had a tougher fight after lifting the seige than before. Those elements (except for the 26th inf, the Germans only had KGs at Bastogne) of the German divisions surrounding Bastogne were actually outnumbered and outgunned by defenders inside the seige lines.

                          As noted, Patton began moving divisions out of the line and realigning them for most of a week before they actually moved off to attack the German flank. Patton was forced to call off his own attack on the Saar but he was by no means fully committed and the myth that he pulled out of an attack and wheeled 90 degrees before attacking north is not supported by the facts. This takes nothing away from what Patton actually did but he was doing nothing that 1st and 9th Armies were not doing in the north when they pulled no less than three armoured divisions plus two or three more infantry divs out of the line to block the northern flank.

                          It is worth noting that 30th inf and US armour stopped Peiper at Stoumont and La Gliese and began counterattacking before Patton got his three divisions moving. By the 19th or 20th the German advantage in the Ardennes had been eradicated as US divisions and corps were re-directed.

                          Originally posted by johnbryan
                          Patton and Hodges both quietly jumped the Rhine River several days in advance of the accepted "main thrust" while another general was still lining up poses for his publicity photographs and holding long, endlessly droning monologues about what they were still facing on the far side of the river.
                          By the time the allies were ready to cross the Rhine the German army in the west had all but been destroyed. The Rhineland battles fought by US 9th and the Cdn 1st Armies drove the final nails into OB West's coffin and the few remaining formation were, indeed, in the north. Further south the German army consisted of little more than a screen and the US 1st, 3rd, 7th and French 2nd Armies had little trouble kicking in the door and bringing about the total collapse in the south. After that it was all open field running and Patton was able to show his true talent in organising a pursuit that carried his army to the borders of Czechoslovakia and thus completely disrupting the south of Germany.

                          Up north, once the Ruhr was encirlced it was much the same except for some odd tough scrapes against the few remaining German divisions that still managed to field some strength. Bouncing the Rhine was no great accomplishment by any of the allied armies. It was the denoument to the Bulge and Rhineland.
                          Last edited by The Purist; 14 Nov 08, 19:42.
                          The Purist

                          Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

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                          • Originally posted by The Purist View Post
                            C'mon John, when Patton's three divisions stepped off on Dec 23rd the main opposition consisted of a single parachute infantry division backed up by 12 assault guns. The attack organised at Patton's behest was little more than a frontal assault and it suffered accordingly. Bastogne was relieved long before major reinforcments reached the Germans at Bastogne and 4th AD had a tougher fight after lifting the seige than before. Those elements (except for the 26th inf, the Germans only had KGs at Bastogne) of the German divisions surrounding Bastogne were actually outnumbered and outgunned by defenders inside the seige lines.

                            As noted, Patton began moving divisions out of the line and realigning them for most of a week before they actually moved off to attack the German flank. Patton was forced to call off his own attack on the Saar but he was by no means fully committed and the myth that he pulled out of an attack and wheeled 90 degrees before attacking north is not supported by the facts. This takes nothing away from what Patton actually did but he was doing nothing that 1st and 9th Armies were not doing in the north when they pulled no less than three armoured divisions plus two or three more infantry divs out of the line to block the northern flank.

                            It is worth noting that 30th inf and US armour stopped Peiper at Stoumont and La Gliese and began counterattacking before Patton got his three divisions moving. By the 19th or 20th the German advantage in the Ardennes had been eradicated as US divisions and corps were re-directed.



                            By the time the allies were ready to cross the Rhine the German army in the west had all but been destroyed. The Rhineland battles fought by US 9th and the Cdn 1st Armies drove the final nails into OB West's coffin and the few remaining formation were, indeed, in the north. Further south the German army consisted of little more than a screen and the US 1st, 3rd, 7th and French 2nd Armies had little trouble kicking in the door and bringing about the total collapse in the south. After that it was all open field running and Patton was able to show his true talent in organising a pursuit that carried his army to the borders of Czechoslovakia and thus completely disrupting the south of Germany.

                            Up north, once the Ruhr was encirlced it was much the same except for some odd tough scrapes against the few remaining German divisions that still managed to field some strength. Bouncing the Rhine was no great accomplishment by any of the allied armies. It was the denoument to the Bulge and Rhineland.
                            Yes, it's funny how some kamphgruppes and a single Airborne Division defending the Saar can cause such consternation with the opposition and with the right terrain and support at their disposal. Monte Cassino comes to mind.

                            I would in no way call Patton's attack to relieve Bastogne in the time he alotted as a "myth." Patton's 3rd Army stepped off on 21 December, not the 23rd. Admittedly the attack suffered heavily because it was nothing more than a frontal assault upon prepared positions, with no time to plan for the niceties of alternate routes, nor changes of tactics.

                            Bastogne was not relieved and was still under siege from Von Luttwitz's 47th Panzer Corps, consisting of the Panzer Lehr, 2nd Panzer and 26th Volksgrenadier Divisions, soon followed by the 15th Panzergrenadier Division. Panzer Lehr and 2 Panzer were not KG's. They had been rebuilt after the bloodletting in Normandy. I'm not sure about the 15th PG Division that had fought and was freshly arrived from Italy. Bastogne was not fully relieved until 26 December, although the 101st Airborne Division still maintains that they were never remotely in any need of relief.
                            Last edited by johnbryan; 14 Nov 08, 22:48.
                            "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

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                            • well, Nothing against Monty, however the Operation as flawed at the start. perhaps if they gave it more time or scrubbed the operation all together.
                              Life is Expensive Bullets are cheap anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice.Me
                              I'm not lying I'm Just Improving the truth

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                              • Originally posted by The Purist View Post

                                It is worth noting that 30th inf and US armour stopped Peiper at Stoumont and La Gliese and began counterattacking before Patton got his three divisions moving. By the 19th or 20th the German advantage in the Ardennes had been eradicated as US divisions and corps were re-directed.
                                By the end of December 20th the Krauts from Peiper's column were running from the 504th PIR out of Cheneux. 30th was a big help, but doesn't deserve all the credit, the 82nd was on the line first and farther up, and as far as US armour, that tank division who disappeared from supporting the 82nd was really cool...
                                "This life..., you know, "the life." Youíre not gonna get any medals, kid. This is not a hero business; you donít shoot people from a mile a way. You gotta stand right next to them... blow their heads off."

                                BoRG

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