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  • The Battle of Albury

    Seeing as some people wanted a Tank battle:

    Important: This is not an opportunity to restart the Sealion thread. This is solely dealing with this battle and it's outcome, in the parameters outlined bellow.

    November, 1940, Kent, Near the village of Albury (51 13'11.77" N, 0 29'54.51" W).
    Edit: Don't have Google Earth? Click here. (Flash Required)

    The Germans have gotten ashore and have ground their way north through Kent, and have finally reached the GHQ line.

    Supplies have grown sparse, and reinforcements have not gotten across the RN dominated channel. The remaining German forces have been worn down, some specialists and Elite troops have virtually been wiped out. Resistance has further depleted the Germans further, as they have to spread out to try to hold down the local population. This has however given the Germans Defence in Depth.

    The Luftwaffe has knocked it's self out trying to interdict the flow of supplies to the battle lines, and have to some part managed.

    The Invasion of Britain has given the British more ammunition in the political fighting over in America, and most of the American political leadership is now worried that Britain might fall, and has now declared war on Germany. the American population as a whole isn't too fired up, so the US response will be slow to arrive, so the Germans Must finish this quickly!

    The Germans Knowing they must win have shuffled around their commanders so the best are in charge, however they are lacking in Artillery And infantry.

    The British because of the Existing commanders failures to halt the Germans have also had a shuffle about. However as they don't want to Lose the entire campaign the British HQ have only sent forward limited infantry support preferring to Keep the GHQ line fully manned. The British do have good Artillery.

    Slowly over the last few days the Germans have staged as much of their remaining armour forward, in and around Blackheath. Ready to attempt a Punch through the GHQ line to their north.

    The British are preparing a counter attack from the GHQ line, coming from near Newlands Corner, to try and push the Germans back.

    Both armour forces move out at roughly the same time, and meet head on around Albury.

    Both sides have at best patchy and sporadic air support, with the advantage going to the Luftwaffe, as the Chain home system is out, and 11 group no longer exists so any air support has to come from 10, 12 and 13 groups. Although the weather may well interfere with Air operations.

    So Do the Germans break through and roll on through the GHQ line? Or do they get crushed under the tracks of a Matilda swarm?
    Last edited by Listy; 13 May 07, 04:27.
    Winnie says
    ---------------------------------
    "He fell out of a Gestapo car, over a bridge, and onto a railway line. Then was run over by the Berlin Express.

    It was an Accident."
    Herr Flick.

  • #2
    `
    How would the strength the Germans have to bring to bear be determined ?

    Info on the available British assets would seem to be at hand - at least if you wanna sift thru umpteen thousand posts in that other mess.
    LoL

    I suppose it could be determined "semi-randomly" by taking the number of tanks of each type the Germans propose to trundle off to Albion and determining a loss factor with the old " %-tile dice " or some such...
    (and my trusty 100-sider long gone... )


    I dunno about that "America declaring war on Germany" business, though.
    eh...
    Sounds "Turtledovean" enough... what the hey !
    " Reality is interpretation according to a scheme which we cannot escape "

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Lokinar View Post
      `
      How would the strength the Germans have to bring to bear be determined ?

      Info on the available British assets would seem to be at hand - at least if you wanna sift thru umpteen thousand posts in that other mess.
      LoL

      I suppose it could be determined "semi-randomly" by taking the number of tanks of each type the Germans propose to trundle off to Albion and determining a loss factor with the old " %-tile dice " or some such...
      (and my trusty 100-sider long gone... )


      I dunno about that "America declaring war on Germany" business, though.
      eh...
      Sounds "Turtledovean" enough... what the hey !
      The Us thing is optional but I wanted to get the tank battle going with out a lot of waiting around for more reinforcements and the arguments about logistics that entails.

      Lets see, 65% of the Armour landed by the Germans is left running, and a comparable sized force on the British side.
      Winnie says
      ---------------------------------
      "He fell out of a Gestapo car, over a bridge, and onto a railway line. Then was run over by the Berlin Express.

      It was an Accident."
      Herr Flick.

      Comment


      • #4
        After temporary gains, the German attack falters under intense British artillery barrage. While some armor got through, the infantry needed to follow up was hit in its assembly area and decimated. Lack of adequate counterbattery dooms the Hun.

        Comment


        • #5
          ach, I posted and then it was gone.

          ok, I'll redo it.

          this What if, assuems the germans managed to land elements of parashute troops, perhaps one armored division and 3-5 infantry/mountain divisions all of high training, proficiency and experience, supported by some tactical air force and an extra help from Brandenburgers commandos... on the down side, not much artillery support. and limited fuel.

          facing that the british can muster 4-5 infantry divisions, home guard forces and perhaps 1-2 armoured divisions. all not well trained, not experienced and with useless tactical air support. and some artillery.

          well, my bet goes on to the Germans to break through the english lines and be able to muster just enough fuel to make some recon elements and tanks to rampage through to the western thames river and seize some bridges.

          why? German doctrine was better, experience would make a big difference, while home soil advantage is not clear (british regiments and home guard were not necessarely from south england). also the British advantage of tanks woudl smash itself on the german 88s that good commanders (after their experience in France) would have known how to use. British tactical air would be useless and decimated by the good german flak.

          in the end the decision would be on britain's will to fight on. my take is that once germans victorious on the ground, even if by a small margin, the british would just have gone the way of all other nations, i.e. France, cut and run. except the odd Churchill, a negotiated peace would have been welcome by all - the war was goign so bad anyway by then that a reasonable peace would have been welcome and the british will to fight was strong as long as they were safe.


          US intervention would simply be out of the question in 1940.
          "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

          Comment


          • #6
            Actually Piero according to the official plan the panzer divisions would be arriving in the second wave. The first wave is 9 infantry and mountain divisions, 1 parachute division backed up with a couple of battalions of swim panzers (mostly PZ1s and 2s) and a few IIIs and IV and a few STGIIIBs. The number tossed around was 250 total.

            The Panzer divsions require port facilities to unload and the British wired them all for demolition and placed block ships in the way. So no Panzer divisions available at all.

            I would not count on the 88s at all. Some light flak battalions were included in the first wave but they'll be LW units and assigned to defend the beaches. That is if any survive the offloading process.

            The Royal navy will likely catch and demolish the first wave as it is attempting to unload the follow on elements. The official German plan shows that they take 3 days to unload the first wave. Given RN dominance (10:1 in destroyers) it is reasonable to say that the first wave never completes unloading. Most of their heavy equipment never reaches English soil.

            If there is a big tank battle it will feature 80 to 100 German tanks most of which are Pz1s and 2s who are desparately short on fuel and ammunition and spare parts facing off against several hundred British tanks (most of which are light but some 60 to 100 Matildas) with gobs or infantry and artillery support. The Germans will have little infantry, no artillery and the RAF will own the sky. The real killers will be the Matilda II's against which the German tanks have no defence. Expect a slow grinding methodical destruction of the German tank force followed by a methodical adavamnce to the coast.

            Comment


            • #7
              Adrian's oil notwithstanding, tell me Listy-wan, what is the state of German Armour in this hypothetical situation? What's their AT capability outside of said armour?
              Signing out.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                Adrian's oil notwithstanding, tell me Listy-wan, what is the state of German Armour in this hypothetical situation? What's their AT capability outside of said armour?
                As i said specialist troops are getting rare. Such big targets such as 88 crews are needed to shoot at aircraft and ships, as well as provide AT support, they're going to be stretched and decreasing as they take losses.

                So Can we say PAK36 time, which infantry Battalions would have integeraly.

                And you lot are free to argue amongst yourselves you know about any aspect, as I'm just grabbing thoughts out the air with a dash of logic.
                Winnie says
                ---------------------------------
                "He fell out of a Gestapo car, over a bridge, and onto a railway line. Then was run over by the Berlin Express.

                It was an Accident."
                Herr Flick.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Listy View Post
                  As i said specialist troops are getting rare. Such big targets such as 88 crews are needed to shoot at aircraft and ships, as well as provide AT support, they're going to be stretched and decreasing as they take losses.

                  So Can we say PAK36 time, which infantry Battalions would have integeraly.

                  And you lot are free to argue amongst yourselves you know about any aspect, as I'm just grabbing thoughts out the air with a dash of logic.
                  I read your initial post and thought you had some idea of how many, and of what type, tanks the Germans had. Then we'd go from there. Since you haven't then let me put this to you: If it's November they're out of fuel and ammunition and the foot soldiers are starving to death.
                  Signing out.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Full Monty View Post
                    I read your initial post and thought you had some idea of how many, and of what type, tanks the Germans had. Then we'd go from there. Since you haven't then let me put this to you: If it's November they're out of fuel and ammunition and the foot soldiers are starving to death.


                    I love this, not so long ago you bemoaned the fact that if we hadn't misbehaved then we could be discussing the assault on the GHQ line.

                    and if it's the first of October then they might still be fine.

                    **realises he put the wrong month in the original thread**

                    Winnie says
                    ---------------------------------
                    "He fell out of a Gestapo car, over a bridge, and onto a railway line. Then was run over by the Berlin Express.

                    It was an Accident."
                    Herr Flick.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      well, for this Waht IF, you have to assume that the landings have been very successfull, otherwise, of course no game.


                      but for a similar battle, you have the june 1940 battle of Abbeville. where one german infantry division stood for three days agaisnt he assaults of one french armoured division and two british armoured divisions. that included Matildas.

                      now the Germans had a tough time, but still did not break and did not concede lots of terrain (and allowed for german reinforcements and pz to come to secure the front).
                      "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Listy View Post


                        I love this, not so long ago you bemoaned the fact that if we hadn't misbehaved then we could be discussing the assault on the GHQ line.

                        and if it's the first of October then they might still be fine.

                        **realises he put the wrong month in the original thread**

                        1st October (roughly) is better. My wargame idea was that the Germans would have about ten days to secure a 'winning position' before their tenuous supply situation would tip the balance firmly in favour of the British/Commonwealth forces.

                        Originally posted by Piero1971
                        Well, for this 'What iF', you have to assume that the landings have been very successful, otherwise, of course no game.
                        What I was trying to get to was the parameters that we were working within. If it was November, as Listy originally said, then things would have got very desperate for the Germans, even with a successful landing. Early October is far more practical and opens up a lot of opportunities for debate.

                        I'll see what info I can pull up from the Hell that is the 'Sealion' thread.
                        Signing out.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by piero1971 View Post
                          well, for this Waht IF, you have to assume that the landings have been very successfull, otherwise, of course no game.


                          but for a similar battle, you have the june 1940 battle of Abbeville. where one german infantry division stood for three days agaisnt he assaults of one french armoured division and two british armoured divisions. that included Matildas.

                          now the Germans had a tough time, but still did not break and did not concede lots of terrain (and allowed for german reinforcements and pz to come to secure the front).
                          Yes, but any attacking German units would probably consist largely of hastily thrown-together, although very effective, kamphgruppes that were low on ammunition, food, fuel, morale and fighting against ever growing numbers of British troops and armour, now moving into the area.

                          Meanwhile, now that the Royal Navy knows exactly where the German invasion beaches are, they will concentrate their destroyers and lighter forces offshore, while doing all in their power to insure that reinforcing German transports and barges never arrive.

                          My guess too is that the night-time RN ship bombardment of Cherbourg would be moved up a couple of weeks as well, so as to cause maximum damage to this vital embarkation port and its docks. Also, other RN battleship bombardments of ports like Bolougne, Ostend and others could be in the making as soon as British minesweepers could sweep away the German minefields.
                          "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Listy View Post
                            Seeing as some people wanted a Tank battle:

                            Important: This is not an opportunity to restart the Sealion thread. This is solely dealing with this battle and it's outcome, in the parameters outlined bellow.

                            November, 1940, Kent, Near the village of Albury (51 13'11.77" N, 0 29'54.51" W).
                            Edit: Don't have Google Earth? Click here. (Flash Required)

                            The Germans have gotten ashore and have ground their way north through Kent, and have finally reached the GHQ line.

                            Supplies have grown sparse, and reinforcements have not gotten across the RN dominated channel. The remaining German forces have been worn down, some specialists and Elite troops have virtually been wiped out. Resistance has further depleted the Germans further, as they have to spread out to try to hold down the local population. This has however given the Germans Defence in Depth.

                            The Luftwaffe has knocked it's self out trying to interdict the flow of supplies to the battle lines, and have to some part managed.

                            The Invasion of Britain has given the British more ammunition in the political fighting over in America, and most of the American political leadership is now worried that Britain might fall, and has now declared war on Germany. the American population as a whole isn't too fired up, so the US response will be slow to arrive, so the Germans Must finish this quickly!

                            The Germans Knowing they must win have shuffled around their commanders so the best are in charge, however they are lacking in Artillery And infantry.

                            The British because of the Existing commanders failures to halt the Germans have also had a shuffle about. However as they don't want to Lose the entire campaign the British HQ have only sent forward limited infantry support preferring to Keep the GHQ line fully manned. The British do have good Artillery.

                            Slowly over the last few days the Germans have staged as much of their remaining armour forward, in and around Blackheath. Ready to attempt a Punch through the GHQ line to their north.

                            The British are preparing a counter attack from the GHQ line, coming from near Newlands Corner, to try and push the Germans back.

                            Both armour forces move out at roughly the same time, and meet head on around Albury.

                            Both sides have at best patchy and sporadic air support, with the advantage going to the Luftwaffe, as the Chain home system is out, and 11 group no longer exists so any air support has to come from 10, 12 and 13 groups. Although the weather may well interfere with Air operations.

                            So Do the Germans break through and roll on through the GHQ line? Or do they get crushed under the tracks of a Matilda swarm?
                            Good scenerio, Listy! Only thing that I disagree with is the bit about America coming into the war in 1940. Isolationist feeling in America was extremely strong in the mind of the US public and Congress as a whole, right up to Pearl Harbor, a year later. In fact, a scant few months before PH, a Congressional Measure designed to keep America's newly enlarged, conscript and Federalized National Guard Based Army under arms and in Federal Service passed by only one vote in Congress. It was just that close.
                            "Profanity is but a linguistic crutch for illiterate motherbleepers"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by johnbryan View Post
                              Yes, but any attacking German units would probably consist largely of hastily thrown-together, although very effective, kamphgruppes that were low on ammunition, food, fuel, morale and fighting against ever growing numbers of British troops and armour, now moving into the area.

                              Meanwhile, now that the Royal Navy knows exactly where the German invasion beaches are, they will concentrate their destroyers and lighter forces offshore, while doing all in their power to insure that reinforcing German transports and barges never arrive.

                              My guess too is that the night-time RN ship bombardment of Cherbourg would be moved up a couple of weeks as well, so as to cause maximum damage to this vital embarkation port and its docks. Also, other RN battleship bombardments of ports like Bolougne, Ostend and others could be in the making as soon as British minesweepers could sweep away the German minefields.
                              I dont' disagree with you here. only that German morale would still be good and that British really had shortages of equipment, armor and ammo... most of the equipment was lost at Dunkirk (we should really assume that such a Sealion comes after the troops at Dunkirk were captured and not lef go...)

                              and yes, the Germans better have a quick victory or the RN gets them really isolated in South England... and despite the probably Goering's boastfull claims of suppling the force by air with the remaining Ju-52 (a lot might have been downed in the early phase of invasion) it would still be tough..

                              in the end, real armchair generals will have to make their hands dirty and wargame this!
                              "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

                              Comment

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