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  • Top Army?

    Hello Everyone,

    I'm new here, but I've enjoyed reading, lurking, etc...

    I spend a good deal of time watching the military channel, and I have been impressed with 20th Century Battlefields digital re-creation of battles that changed the course of history. As I watched, I wondered if there would be a way to incorporate alternative history into the show.

    It's fun to try and think about who possessed the all time greatest fighting force. Its a subject that has been debated here in past, but what would happen if two of the top fighting forces were able fight each other across time?

    This is a notion that has been nagging at me for some time, so I tried to create a sample scenario. My sample battle pitted Ghengis Kahn and the Mongols against the Third Reich's 6th Corp under Generallfeldmarschall Paulus (the same fighting force that participated in the battle of Stalingrad). I researched Kahn and his tactics, and also researched the Battle of Stalingrad in an effort to understand why the Germans ultimately lost that fight at the height of their power.

    After this bit of research, I had the two armies square off in Stalingrad, 1942. Each side was given the weapons and tactics of their day. It is my contention that despite the technological superiority of the Nazis, the Mongols would eventually win the battle. I'm not going to go into this now, but I can give a detailled hypothesis as to why, if someone wishes.

    My question to the board is this: What other matchups would you all like to see, and how could we make them viable? It is easy to state that any modern fighting force can defeat an ancient one, simply because of the evolution of warfare. But can the playing field be made equal? What would you guys do to equalize your army matchups in an effort to make them entertaining?

    I'd appreciate your thoughts, because I would love to someday see a digital creation of hypothetical battles against the top armies in history. I think it could bring alternative history to the masses.

  • #2
    Are you serious? Are you saying that a cavalry army with bows and arrows will defeat a partially mechanized army with automatic weapons in an urban environment?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by AdrianE View Post
      Are you serious? Are you saying that a cavalry army with bows and arrows will defeat a partially mechanized army with automatic weapons in an urban environment?
      Maybe if the cavalry was composed of the Riders of Rohan and the archers were all named Legolas...
      Watts Up With That? | The world's most viewed site on global warming and climate change.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Phiggily View Post

        I'd appreciate your thoughts, because I would love to someday see a digital creation of hypothetical battles against the top armies in history. I think it could bring alternative history to the masses.
        Well, it would be interesting to see the Nelson's armada against u-boat wolf pack ...
        But regarding the mongols - are they using some mongol voodoo? Or hypnotic mongolic songs that force the enemy to fall asleep?
        Because if so it wouldn't be a fair fight!
        If you believe, you receive.
        If you doubt, you go without.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by leopold View Post
          Well, it would be interesting to see the Nelson's armada against u-boat wolf pack ...
          The U-Boats would run out of torpedos.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by The Doctor View Post
            Maybe if the cavalry was composed of the Riders of Rohan and the archers were all named Legolas...
            Okay, perhaps victory wouldn't be likely, but could it be possible?

            Here is my logic, though I realize it may be flawed. Keep in mind that this battle would occur in and around Stalingrad:

            The Mongols are remembered for their lethal combination of shock, mobility and firepower (at least firepower of the day). The men were highly disciplined thanks ingenious organizational structure. Also, Mongols learned different fighting tactics and absorbed them as they fought battles.

            Their weaknesses in this battle should be obvious: primitive weapons and the unfamiliarity with urban warfare.

            Similarly, the Germans possessed elements of shock, mobility and firepower. They were highly disciplined under Paulus and their technology far exceeded the Mongols.

            The German's weakness in Russia was their inability to adapt to the harsh winter, and they also lacked unified leadership. Hitler acted emotionally during this campaign, believing that winning at Stalingrad and capitulating the city named after his enemy's leader would give a morale boost to the Reich and send a message across the world that the Nazis were invincible.

            The beginning of the battle would be laughable. The Mongols would be massacred by the German's superior firepower, and any that survived would most likely retreat into Stalingrad. The Germans respond by bombarding the city and reducing it to rubble.

            The Mongols in remaining in Stalingrad would call for reinforcements, all the while learning about the weapons they had never seen before. They realize that direct attacks are suicide, so they resort to attacking under cover of darkness in small groups. Remember, that the Mongols were excellent horseman. They could use the horse to ride around the German flank to the rear, and begin harassing supply lines. Overtime, they too, would learn how to use guns and artillery pieces.

            As the harsh Russian winter sets in, the playing field begins to equalize. German tanks, and machinary begin to break down in the cold. The Mongols, however, lived in similar climates without depending on modern conveniences to survive. In this, they have an advantage over German troops. The Mongols would also be able to feed themselves from the surrounding countryside, without having to rely on a modern war machine to feed themselves.

            The Mongols continue to adapt their fighting style, as they gain more modern weapons and learn about them. Imagine Genghis in a tank! The Mongols continue to reinforce themselves, and they continue to harrass the German supply train. The Germans begin to feel the affects of this as they're supplies get cut off due to the weather and the Mongols. Many begin to starve.

            As Mongol reinforcements arrive, the counteroffensive begins.

            This is about as far as I have taken this, but I basically contend that the German reliance on modern technology would become a hinderance during the Russian winter, when facing an enemy that never relied upon such conveniences, and had experience living in those conditions.

            The tenacity of the Mongols, their resources of their vast empire, and most importantly, their ability to absorb styles of fighting COULD prove enough to defeat the German 6th corp of 1942...

            I greatly appreciate the comments, and these comments pertain to the other part of my post. How would one seek to equalize two fighting forces separated by time and technological advancement? How could you do this and still have a viable matchup? This is my main question.

            I'm open to all opinions and I do appreciate the response, positive or negative.

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            • #7
              I'd really appreciate some feedback on this. Am I beyond hope? An idiot?

              Thanks guys.

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              • #8
                I think it would be better to look at the tactics of both sides and apply those to three time periods. The time period of the first. The time period of the second and lastly sometime in between. So for this situation what weapons would the germans have used when Gengis Khan was around and how would they have been able to apply their tactics and strategy to the ways of war back then. Then you would have to do that for both around the time of Napoleon. And finally do the same with the Mongols with World War 2.

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                • #9
                  Interesting post, but the mongols would need such a vastly larger army that it would be amazing.

                  I guess in a close urban enviorment the mongols equipment short comings might be less than in the steppes, but still I doubt the mongols would have a chance.


                  Field Marshall Khan?

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                  • #10
                    "I'd really appreciate some feedback on this. Am I beyond hope? An idiot? "

                    No, but you are surrounded by idiots. You can become one of us, join us

                    Engineers post restates your idea, it considers this matchup in the context of each army equipped in the ar of the other. So, what would the Germans look like in Medival times & how would a modern Mongol army appear.

                    ie: The Mongol compound bow was a very superior weapon of its day. What would the equivalent of 1942 be? Perhaps a high velocity AP gun.

                    A more erious question would be how would Mongol tactics be adapted to armored vehicals, trucks, and radios, ect...?
                    Last edited by Carl Schwamberg; 12 Apr 07, 00:30.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Reaper View Post
                      The U-Boats would run out of torpedos.
                      Huh? Nelson's armada was about 35 ships--the U-boats could have taken it out with deck guns.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Phiggily View Post
                        I'd really appreciate some feedback on this. Am I beyond hope? An idiot?

                        Thanks guys.
                        No I don't think you understand the firepower advantage the machine gun gives.

                        The MG42 will put out 1200 rounds a minute. The German 6th Army has thousands of these weapons and tons of munitions.

                        Just how will the mongols deal with any armoured vehicles?

                        Now consider what happens when a mongol unit faces a combat engineer unit equipped with flamethrowers. Don't you think the mongols will break and run?

                        Add in the artillery and airpower that the 6th army had available, and the mongols will die before they even see a German.

                        The Mongols will not be able to interdict the German logistics train, while the Germans will be able to interdict the mongols. Its the mongols who would starve.

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                        • #13
                          he he...


                          perhaps the Germans could convince the mongols to land on the Isle of white?
                          "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                          • #14
                            Engineers post restates your idea, it considers this matchup in the context of each army equipped in the ar of the other. So, what would the Germans look like in Medival times & how would a modern Mongol army appear.

                            ie: The Mongol compound bow was a very superior weapon of its day. What would the equivalent of 1942 be? Perhaps a high velocity AP gun.

                            A more erious question would be how would Mongol tactics be adapted to armored vehicals, trucks, and radios, ect...?
                            I was trying to say both of those things. Not only how would a Mongol army use modern tactics but also how their weapons might be different from other armies. For example the Mongols used speed and firepower to win, so a Mongol army during World War 2 probably would be almost completely motorised and mechanized. Their tanks would likely have focused on having a high top speed and a powerful gun at the expense of the armour. Every tank would have a radio as would each infantry platoon. Infantry would be transported in trucks or half-tracks and all artillery would be self-propelled. Their aircraft would likely go for speed and firepower at the expense of protection for the pilot and other vital areas of the aircraft. Their tactics would likely not change that much other than taking advantage of modern techology. They would likely use a highly mobile blitzkrieg style of fighting.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Engineer 1888 View Post
                              ... so a Mongol army during World War 2 probably would be almost completely motorised and mechanized.
                              No they wouldn't. The total lack of heavy industry in Mongolia makes sure of that.

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