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US doesn't sell T-34 design to Russia

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  • US doesn't sell T-34 design to Russia

    What is the effect?

  • #2
    I am going to learn something new today. can you tell me the source of the T-34 design that was US ? I thought it was the engine only, but I can be wrong here (I'm not an expert in history of tank design)
    "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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    • #3
      'The US' did not sell the design for the T34 to the Soviets.
      That would be like saying Britain sold the Germans the design for the Pz.1 as they evaluated and used systems from Carden Lloyds in it's technological development.

      Walter Christie supplied tank technology to the world in a market environment. Technology was aquired covertly by the Soviets via two 'front' companies, Arcos in the UK and Amtorg in the US.

      Amtorg got 2 of Christie's T3 models out of the country in 1930 and had signed an 'exclusive' deal with him before the American authorities even began to ask questions. It was a significant moment in the future birth of the T34 but very far from a 'sale', the Russians created the T34, Christies suspension was a part of it's evolution, as it was in any other design that used the system.

      One other interesting US aspect of the T34's evolution is in the transmission system; when the Americans got hold of their first evaluation model they found it was a direct copy of a system they had rejected approximately 15 years before as unsuitable for tracked vehicles and far too noisy.

      To answer the question more directly though, if there were no T34 with Christie suspension there would be one with any of the other suspension technologies that Russia became so effective at applying, it just may not have been quite so fast.

      Cheers,
      abc.

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      • #4
        Good stuff abc.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by abc View Post
          One other interesting US aspect of the T34's evolution is in the transmission system; when the Americans got hold of their first evaluation model they found it was a direct copy of a system they had rejected approximately 15 years before as unsuitable for tracked vehicles and far too noisy.
          Quick revision here, actually reread the report and it was the KV1's transmission that was identical and the T34's was 'very similar'.
          Apologies,
          abc.

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          • #6
            I think a re-edit is in order.

            Let's change the question to, oh, how about "What would the Eastern Fron have looked like if the Russian's more conservative elements had suceeded in derailing T-34 production and/or development?"

            From wikipedia:
            There was political pressure from conservative elements in the army to redirect resources into building the older T-26 and BT tanks, or to cancel T-34 production pending completion of the more advanced T-34M design. Germany's surprise attack against the Soviet Union in June 22, 1941 (Operation Barbarossa) forced the Soviet Union to freeze further development, and shift into full production of tanks.
            Doubtfull, but it is a possibility. Maybe during the trials, the T-34s fail spectacularly in a freak accident, and the High Command (and Stalin) remain unconvinced.

            Could the Russians have stopped the Germans with T-26s and BT tanks?



            BLT. . . mmmmmm. . .

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            • #7
              Originally posted by daemonofdecay View Post
              I think a re-edit is in order.

              Let's change the question to, oh, how about "What would the Eastern Fron have looked like if the Russian's more conservative elements had suceeded in derailing T-34 production and/or development?"

              From wikipedia:


              Doubtfull, but it is a possibility. Maybe during the trials, the T-34s fail spectacularly in a freak accident, and the High Command (and Stalin) remain unconvinced.

              Could the Russians have stopped the Germans with T-26s and BT tanks?



              BLT. . . mmmmmm. . .
              Do you really think the Germans could have won?

              The size of Russia was too much for the German High Command to fathom after the reached the Volga River line (Original objectives of Operation Barbarossa).

              I believe the Germans might have captured Moscow, starved out Leningrad... But would have eventually lost because of the two front war....

              1947....
              Kevin Kenneally
              Masters from a school of "hard knocks"
              Member of a Ph.D. Society (Post hole. Digger)

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              • #8
                T-34s and KV-1 scared the bejeebers out of German tankers in the beginning.

                But they were all more or less lost due to lousy initial conditions.

                Trying to retain any Russian initial armour in 41 is likely the most frustrating task in any wargame I have ever played (accept Mega Campaign Lost Victories).

                Thus, I think the initial shock advantage while significant, probably would not be that dominant there or not there, as the Germans got over it.

                They were stopped by a much better weapon. Snow.
                Life is change. Built models for decades.
                Not sure anyone here actually knows the real me.
                I didn't for a long time either.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Aries View Post
                  They were stopped by a much better weapon. Snow.
                  ....and empty fuel tanks.
                  If you can't set a good example, be a glaring warning.

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                  • #10
                    And the fierceness of Russian resistance. The fact that Guderian had to be shifted from AGC to AGS and then back again had nothing to do with snow, mud or empty fuel tanks and everything to do with the forces opposing the Germans.

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                    • #11
                      Firmly agree with Grognard. The old myth of 'General Winter' being the primary cause of Barbarossa's stuttering needs countering and owes much to the pages of Signal and the postwar accounts given to the west by primarily German sources.
                      The weather affected both sides equally.
                      The Wehrmacht was fought to a near halt, the weather was a factor but far from a cause.
                      Cheers,
                      abc.

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                      • #12
                        If you search the Soviet Army sources you will find alternative designs to the t34 & Kv. Its not as if the designers would say "We dont have Christies drawings, turn off the lights & go home."

                        Several earlier types such as the BT series were also influenced by Christies ideas, so they would have been replaced by something else as well.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by freightshaker View Post
                          ....and empty fuel tanks.
                          ...and empty stomachs

                          ... and bad generalmanship

                          ... and stubborn soviet resistance.


                          that said with no T-34, the USSR would have mass produced another tank... perhas an up-gunned M4 sherman?
                          "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by abc View Post
                            The weather affected both sides equally.

                            Well..........the Germans had no winter weather gear, so they would be affected by the temperature much more readily than were the Soviets.
                            Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by tigersqn View Post
                              Well..........the Germans had no winter weather gear, so they would be affected by the temperature much more readily than were the Soviets.
                              'No gear' isn't quite right but I would certainly concede they were less well equipped in personal gear and experience to deal with it.
                              This doesn't however automatically make it the primary factor it is so often cited as. They were fought to a stop, not Frozen.
                              (but this is going somewhat off-topic from the T34 question, so I'll stop now )
                              Cheers,
                              abc.

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