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Japan wins at Guadalcanal, then what?

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Purple fang View Post
    "the only correct way for Japan to win the war against he US,"

    Never argued this point, or taken this position.

    "Quote:
    I decided I am not going to post on any new thread started by Fang because he won't actually supply evidence."


    Entirely false & dismissed by the several links already posted on this thread. Dumbness does not create the impression of intelligence.



    "ang, at this point you are going to fail your mid term. I am still waiting for answers to these questions."

    You've failed as well. If these bloody questions are so bloody important, find the answers yourself.


    It is unneccessary to answer the "13" to make the point that Australias supply effort A was important to Britains war effort & B Japanese control of Perth would create problems for that effort.

    Raider Atlantis was not the only raider that encountered these ships, nor was it the only ship from Australia Atlantis encountered. Comet & Kormoran as well got a few. Will dig up some data on that.
    FANG YOU HAVE YET TO POST A QUOTE WITH A SOURCE. If I missed something after rereading all your posts, please specifiy post numbers. I will apologise if proven wrong.

    Comment


    • #92
      I just posted "several" posts with sources. Read 87,88, & 89. Loaded with em Links etc. More than any other poster in the thread actually. You have been proven wrong.

      Fang, Fang, Fang. A German raider? Hardly awe inspiring in comparison to a U boat wolfpack.

      A wolfpack?! in west Australia?? C'mon, you must be joking. Serious dumbness. Getting a handful U-boats to Penang was a serious undertaking, a wolfpack, oh my, isn't that silly.


      Germany had few Raiders, but yet 2 of em ended up in western Australia. Was it the fishing? Did the west coast of India or south America get the same attn? not.



      Your post shows the Komet sinking one ship on its way to London via the Panama Canal! Maybe you need to check that map you posted and see where the Panama Canal is. It really isn't very close to Perth you know. The Kormoran also seems to have sunk just one ship!


      Kormoran sank ten merchant ships, comprising a total of 56,965 tons.


      Oh my, 1 ship?? quite a boo boo there. Stacking em deep Leatchy. & Yes Panama not near Perth, very good, got one thing correct. I posted it to show supply effort to Egypt.
      Last edited by Purple fang; 28 Mar 07, 21:49.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Purple fang View Post
        I just posted "several" posts with sources. Read 87,88, & 89. Loaded with em Links etc. More than any other poster in the thread actually. You have been proven wrong.

        Fang, Fang, Fang. A German raider? Hardly awe inspiring in comparison to a U boat wolfpack.

        A wolfpack?! in west Australia?? C'mon, you must be joking. Serious dumbness. Getting a handful U-boats to Penang was a serious undertaking, a wolfpack, oh my, isn't that silly.


        Germany had few Raiders, but yet 2 of em ended up in western Australia. Was it the fishing? Did the west coast of India or south America get the same attn? not.



        Your post shows the Komet sinking one ship on its way to London via the Panama Canal! Maybe you need to check that map you posted and see where the Panama Canal is. It really isn't very close to Perth you know. The Kormoran also seems to have sunk just one ship!


        Kormoran sank ten merchant ships, comprising a total of 56,965 tons.


        Oh my, 1 ship?? quite a boo boo there. Stacking em deep Leatchy. & Yes Panama not near Perth, very good, got one thing correct. I posted it to show supply effort to Egypt.
        Fang I pointed out that a surface raider does not compare to a wolf pack in order to demonstate the lack of effort and low priority Germany gave to the southern supply routes. South America got U Boats my friend.

        The Kormoran sank ten whole ships. I hope the Kapitan got the Knights Cross for that. You should maybe spend some time researching total ship sinkings for 1942 before you post something so pathetic. 10 ships my God how did the Empire survive!

        If Australia was supplying Egypt via the Pananma Canal why do the Japanese take Perth again? I do believe you have made a mockery of your previous posts.

        How are the answers to my questions coming? Or are you just going to keep pretending they were never asked?
        War. Young men killing each other for the benefit of old men!

        Comment


        • #94
          Kormoran sank ten whole ships. I hope the Kapitan got the Knights Cross for that
          Kormoran was sank by HMAS Sydney. Kapitan was POW of Australia

          HP
          "Ask not what your country can do for you"

          Left wing, Right Wing same bird that they are killing.

          you’re entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

          Comment


          • #95
            Fang, we ask for quotes, not for sources. When we read your sources, re the one on partisans, you just turn around and argue with our interpretation.
            I pointed out that that source doesn't deal with 1944. You came back with 1944 is close to 1943 so the same must apply. Others have questioned your sources for German raiders.

            Yet when others offer sources you either do not read them or dismiss them out of hand, re all the sources you "couldn't find" on the effectiveness of partisans in 1944.

            Your response often boils down to the rest of us are dumb, even though we apparently read your sources more closely than you do.

            Comment


            • #96
              Quote given in spades in the above mentioned posts.

              "Kormoran was sank by HMAS Sydney. Kapitan was POW of Australia"


              Bingo. 2 Raiders operated off west coast of Australia. Komet & Kormoran.


              "South America got U Boats my friend."

              Not west coast my friend. Lets work on the reading.












              If Australia was supplying Egypt via the Pananma Canal why do the Japanese take Perth again?

              Oh my, it should be simple. 1st off, Australia ( proven by several raider Atlantis captures ), WAS supplying Egypt through Indian ocean. Now to do that, one must travel the southern sea lanes of Australia. Is it "really" that hard to comprehend !??

              & does anyone actually believe the Atlantic was safer than the Indian ocean?? Japanese control of Perth would mean sending "all" down under supplies through Panama canal,( or through south Atlantic). Hmm, I wonder how long it would take the U-boats to figger that out?? & send a pack down that direction.
              Last edited by Purple fang; 30 Mar 07, 21:14.

              Comment


              • #97
                What I am trying to say to you is that the German Navy sent 3 raiders to the Indian Ocean, where they were largely ineffective.

                January to December 1941 total Allied shipping losses in the Indian Ocean: 20 ships 73 000 tonnes

                January to December 1941 total Allied shipping losses in the Atlantic Ocean: 525 ships 2 555 616 tonnes

                January to December 1942 total Allied shipping losses in the Indian Ocean: 207 ships 724 000 tonnes

                January to December !942 total Allied shipping losses in the Atlantic Ocean: 1006 ships 5 471 222 tonnes

                While the Indian Ocean numbers are not insignificant, they are hardly comparable are they?

                If the supply routes from the West coast of Australia were as important as you claim why didn't the Germans invest a far heavier amount in their efforts to cut them. I am not saying Australia WASN'T supplying Egypt what I am saying is that the Southern route was far less important than you are claiming. That lack of importance is demonstrated by the German's small use of surface raiders in the Indian Ocean. The German Navy's surface fleet was of second class stature in the eyes of the German High Command, and ships used in the Indian Ocean were of second class stature in comparison to the rest of the German Navy. It is not like they sent the Tirpitz or Scharnhorst is it.

                As to your comment that I should work on my reading. I think maybe you should consider the phrase, "people in glass houses should not throw stones".You are yet to show why the US and Canada were unable to increase their supplies to Britain or show how much of their GDP or GNP they were investing in their war efforts. Or in fact any of the questions I have asked you. You are ignoring what you won't or can't answer in favour of making disparaging comments about the other members because we won't agree with you. If you show us research backed by academic methods rather than just posting whatever you can find on the net after a Google search in the belief that it backs your argument, we might start to consider your opinion valid. Until this occurs you are not to be taken seriously.
                Last edited by leatchy; 31 Mar 07, 06:09.
                War. Young men killing each other for the benefit of old men!

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by leatchy View Post
                  . If you show us research backed by academic methods rather than just posting whatever you can find on the net after a Google search in the belief that it backs your argument, we might start to consider your opinion valid. Until this occurs you are not to be taken seriously.
                  That's it in a nutshell, and I'm glad you said if because there will not, IMHO, be a when from Fang.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    what I am saying is that the Southern route was far less important than you are claiming.


                    How important am I claiming it to be?

                    "Quote:
                    Originally Posted by leatchy
                    . If you show us research backed by academic methods rather than just posting whatever you can find on the net after a Google search in the belief that it backs your argument, we might start to consider your opinion valid. Until this occurs you are not to be taken seriously."


                    Have no interest in you taking me seriously. If legit links & sources are not your cup of tea, its no big deal to me.

                    Atlantis was 'not' inneffective in Indian ocean. & Admiral Scheer was also sent there. Both Japan & Germany sent submarines there. Now if it were of no interest to these nations as you have inferred, why the subs? & raiders?

                    Raider info can be found here, it is all academically accurate & correct.

                    http://www.bismarck-class.dk/hilfskreuzer/komet.html

                    Could it be that because the Indian ocean is far away & Atlantic gets more traffic as the reason for less German activity there?




                    ".You are yet to show why the US and Canada were unable to increase their supplies to Britain or show how much of their GDP or GNP they were investing in their war efforts. Or in fact any of the questions I have asked you.

                    I have also asked you these questions, you have failed to answer them.
                    Last edited by Purple fang; 31 Mar 07, 21:11.

                    Comment


                    • Raider Atlantis in Indian ocean...

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis_auxiliary_cruiser

                      Then she headed into the Indian Ocean. Intercepting a British radio message warning about "a raider disguised as Japanese", they adopted a new disguise, that of Abbekerk, a Dutch vessel.


                      [edit] Tirranna, City of Baghdad, and the Kemmendine
                      On June 10, Raider-C stopped the Norwegian motor ship Tirranna with 30 salvos of fire. Five members of that ship's crew were killed, others were wounded. Filled with supplies for Australian troops in the Middle East, Tirranna was captured and sent to Germany.

                      On July 11, the liner City of Baghdad was fired upon at a range of 1.2 km. A boarding party discovered a copy of Broadcasting for Allied Merchant Ships, which contained communications codes. City of Baghdad, like Atlantis, was a former Hansa Liner, having been captured by the British after World War I.

                      At 1009, on July 13, Schiff 16 opened fire on a cargo ship, Kemmendine, which was heading to Burma. Filled with whiskey, Kemmendine was quickly ablaze and a boarding crew returned with only two stuffed animals. Lifeboats were taken aboard which carried women and children.


                      [edit] Talleyrand and King City
                      In August, Atlantis sank Talleyrand, the sister ship of Tirranna. Then she encountered King City, carrying coal, which was mistaken for a British Q-Ship due to its erratic maneuvering, which was caused by mechanical difficulties. Three shells destroyed the bridge, killing four merchant cadets and a cabin boy. Another sailor died on the operating table aboard Atlantis.


                      [edit] Athelking, Benarty, Commissaire Ramel, Durmitor, Teddy, and Ole Jacob
                      In September Atlantis sank Athelking, Benarty, and Commissaire Ramel. All of these were sunk only after supplies, documents, and POWs were taken. In October the Yugoslavian steamer Durmitor was taken and was loaded with documents and 260 POWs, lacking sufficient fuel the steamer resorted to sails and drifted towards Italian-controlled Mogadishu. In the second week of November, Teddy and Ole Jacob were seized.


                      [edit] Automedon and her Secret Cargo
                      At about 0700 on November 11, Schiff 16 encountered the cargo ship Automedon northwest of Sumatra. As soon as the Germans fired a warning shot, Automedon began transmitting, "RRRR", the signal for "raider". From a distance of more than 1.5 km, 28 shells are believed to have hit the bridge. The captain and all the officers were killed.

                      The Germans boarded the cargoship and axed into the captain's safe. Obliging the ship's lone female passenger, they then blasted open a nearby strongroom and discovered 15 bags of mail marked, "Safe hand. By British Master only." This mail included a whole shipment of Top Secret mail for the British Far East Command, new code tables, a British War Cabinet report on British forces, the defences of Singapore, information regarding Australia and New Zealand, and an appraisal of the Empire of Japan's intentions. Automedon was sunk at 1507.

                      The documents, POWs, and 10,000 tons of aviation fuel were sent to Japan, aboard Ole Jacob. The mail reached the German embassy in Tokyo, on December 5, and was then hand-carried to Berlin via the Trans-Siberian railway. A copy was given to the Japanese and it is sometimes argued that this played a prominent part in the Japanese decision to initiate what it referred to as the, "Greater East Asia War". Rogge was rewarded with an ornate katana Samurai sword.


                      [edit] Antarctica and Africa
                      During the Christmas period, Atlantis was at Kerguelen Island, in the Southern Ocean. There they did maintenance and replenished their water supplies. The crew suffered its first fatality when a sailor fell while painting the funnel. He was buried in what is sometimes referred to as "the most southerly German soldier's grave".

                      In late January of 1941, off the eastern coast of Africa, Raider-C sunk the British ship Mandasor and captured Speybank. Then on February 2, the Norwegian tanker Ketty Brövig was relieved of her fuel, which was used not only for the German raider, but also to refuel the Kreuzer (cruiser) Admiral Scheer and an Italian submarine.


                      Now Leatchy, you can't really expect to be taken seriously from your glass house until you admit your errors which have been laid bare through the links & academically accurrate information contained in said links & sources. Just for kicks, let's list some of the links you apparently missed.


                      http://www.ga.gov.au/education/facts/mapproj/sw.htm


                      http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/usnavy/patwing10.htm


                      http://www.mheaust.com.au/Aust/Resea...sentinel13.htm



                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...stern_Solomons



                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Coral_Sea

                      http://www.ww2pacific.com/pearljp.html


                      http://www.usaaf.net/chron/42/aug42.htm

                      From Grog...
                      as usual you can't defend your personal biases with actual references.

                      And he still has not quoted sources to back up his "opinions".

                      Groggy wrongy again.


                      From Leatchy...
                      And they are still way wide of the mark as far as credible sources go.

                      Painfully obviously incorrect. Have you some proof of the innacuracy of the links & sources above??? Til then the silly & unsupported, unacademic inference is summarily dismissed.
                      Last edited by Purple fang; 31 Mar 07, 21:48.

                      Comment


                      • ".You are yet to show why the US and Canada were unable to increase their supplies to Britain or show how much of their GDP or GNP they were investing in their war efforts. Or in fact any of the questions I have asked you.

                        I have also asked you these questions, you have failed to answer them.


                        You have never asked these questions. I asked you and you have refused to answer. What planet are you from posting something as ridiculous as that statement. What, I ask you a question and rather than answer it you ask me the same thing and that is your idea of intellectual discourse is it? Like I said you are not to be taken seriously. I would like to see how that rational would work in a university thesis. Lecturerer asks me to write a paper based around the answer to a question he has asked, lets say for example, Why did the Allies win WW2? Rather than answer the question I submit a paper asking Why the Allies won the War? What do you think my mark would be? By your rational I would get get a high distinction! Mmmm I think not, don't you?

                        Mate I saw your links.

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...stern_Solomons

                        This tells you that there is no page matching your search.

                        http://www.mheaust.com.au/Aust/Resea...sentinel13.htm

                        This is a dead link.

                        http://www.ga.gov.au/education/facts/mapproj/sw.htm

                        This is a map of Australia. Like I said before I live here I know what it looks like.

                        http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/usnavy/patwing10.htm

                        This has no relevence to our disscussion. Apart from a small mention that a US air patrol wing was stationed in Perth for about a year

                        http://www.ww2pacific.com/pearljp.html

                        This is list of what happened to the ships that attacked Pearl Harbour. As most of them were sunk, how is this relevent to the thread?

                        http://www.usaaf.net/chron/42/aug42.htm

                        A combat chronology for the USAAF during WW2. Why?

                        This is it for for me, I can't be bothered with this ridiculous merry-go-round anymore. I refuse to continue talking to some one who doesn't listen. You are wasting my time and I have better things to do. You are obviously the source of all knowledge on everything, so I feel that this is just going to become even more pointless.
                        War. Young men killing each other for the benefit of old men!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by leatchy View Post
                          [B]".This is it for for me, I can't be bothered with this ridiculous merry-go-round anymore. I refuse to continue talking to some one who doesn't listen. You are wasting my time and I have better things to do. You are obviously the source of all knowledge on everything, so I feel that this is just going to become even more pointless.
                          BRAVO leatchy

                          Comment


                          • ".You are yet to show why the US and Canada were unable to increase their supplies to Britain or show how much of their GDP or GNP they were investing in their war efforts. Or in fact any of the questions I have asked you.

                            When are YOU going to answer them. I told you I couldn't find the data. Asked you to seek it out as it seems SO important to you.

                            All the links are related to the exact points in the discussion where they are located. Go back & read where these are & you will see where they fit. Simple.

                            Mate I saw your links.

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...stern_Solomons

                            This tells you that there is no page matching your search.

                            http://www.mheaust.com.au/Aust/Resea...sentinel13.htm

                            This is a dead link.

                            http://www.ga.gov.au/education/facts/mapproj/sw.htm

                            This is a map of Australia. Like I said before I live here I know what it looks like.

                            http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/usnavy/patwing10.htm

                            This has no relevence to our disscussion. Apart from a small mention that a US air patrol wing was stationed in Perth for about a year

                            http://www.ww2pacific.com/pearljp.html

                            This is list of what happened to the ships that attacked Pearl Harbour. As most of them were sunk, how is this relevent to the thread?

                            http://www.usaaf.net/chron/42/aug42.htm

                            A combat chronology for the USAAF during WW2. Why?
                            Last edited by Purple fang; 03 Apr 07, 22:43.

                            Comment


                            • So, wait, I'm confused. What is PF arguing for? I think it's the Japanese attacking . . . Perth?

                              Now, having been to Perth, I might suggest that the Japanese go for another target, like Eastern Australia or securing more oil/steel for their nation. Or maybe on fighting the US' submarines.



                              SOMEone got SH4. . .

                              Comment

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