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  • Von Fritsch stops WW2

    I have read in alot of histories of Nazi Germany that before the reunion with Austria that there was only one man that could have forced Hitler out and stopped WW2, Colonel General Werner Freiherr von Fritsch. But he was forced out of his command of the German Army by trumped up charges of homosexuality that were completely baseless and false. Forced out mainly because he disapproved of Nazism and Hitler's policies towards expansion. He was in favor of the Anschluss with Austria and the reoccupation of the Rhineland and also the expansion of the Army but only for the security of Germany's borders. For a few years prior to his resigning, Himmler and Heydrich had tried to cook up several plots to discredit him including one that said he was the leader of a military coup that was planned in 1935. None of them worked until the homosexuality charge which mainly succeeded because of Fritsch's growing opposition to Nazifying the Army. In the real history Fritsch was in a room with Hitler, Goering, and his accuser and became so enraged that he could not even speak to defend himself and resigned later on against the advice of all his friends in the Army. He was later killed in Poland with his old regiment.

    But let's say that he doesn't resign. Instead after years of fending off Himmler and Heydrich he still becomes enraged and starts to carry a gun. With all these plots to unseat him, he is going to defend himself if the Gestapo or the SS come for him. So he goes to the meeting with Hitler and Goering and is confronted with his accuser and the charges of homosexuality, whereupon he pulls his pistol and shoots all three men in the room. He couldn't believe that the Fuhrer would believe such lies and Goering was also angling for his job, so he takes care of all three problems with one shot so to speak. He then picks up the phone, calls General Ludwig Beck(Chief of Staff) and tells him to mobilize the Army and arrest all SS officers, especially Himmler and Heydrich. He has the backing of the Army and the will to use it. Beck had been at him for years to stand up to Hitler, so Beck is on his side. Guderian also likes and respects von Fritsch and will follow his orders along with most of the rest of the officers and men in the Army. The Defense Minister, von Blomberg, at the same time is accused of marrying a *****, so he is also inclined to go along with what has happened and rid Germany of the Nazi rule.

    So now what? German civil war? Or does Germany still unite with Austria but then stays within it's borders? No demands on Czechoslovakia? No demands on Poland? No World War 2?

    Interested to see what everyone thinks.

    Thanks for reading, Bob
    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

  • #2
    I don't think von Fritsch would've got as far as to assassinate Hitler and two of his pet sycophants. If von Fritsch was considered that much of a threat then he would've been amongst those killed in the Night of The Long Knives (June 30-July 1, 1934) when 200 Nazis-including most of the Sturmabteilung leadership were wiped out including it's leader Ernst Roehm (also branded as a homosexual)and Gregor Strasser, who was one of Hitler's closest associates, until a disagreement forced Strasser to resign his membership of Hitler's party also became a critic of Hitler, branding him a congential liar, Goebbels a clubfoot and Himmler as Satan in human form.

    Hitler was always frightened that the army would turn on him one day. One example is the aftermath of von Stauffenberg's bomb plot which led to the execution of 150 suspected conspirators-Erwin Rommel included, who was forced to take his own life.

    I don't believe if von Fritsch had carried a pistol in reposnse to threats it would've saved him, no matter how much ammunition he could carry. He would've been very foolish to accept any invitation to attend a meeting with Hitler-it would have been a trap set by the Gestapo.
    Last edited by Sign&Print Name; 14 Feb 07, 15:26. Reason: typo
    Hitler played Golf. His bunker shot was a hole in one.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Sign&Print Name View Post
      I don't think von Fritsch would've got as far as to assassinate Hitler and two of his pet sycophants. If he was considered that much of a threat then he would've been amongst those killed in the Night of The Long Knives (June 30-July 1, 1934) when 200 Nazis-including most of the Sturmabteilung leadership were wiped out including it's leader Ernst Roehm (also branded as a homosexual). Gregor Strasser, who was one of Hitler's closest associates, until a disagreement forced Strasser to resign his membership of Hitler's party also became a critic of Hitler, branding him a congential liar, Goebbels a clubfoot and Himmler as Satan in human form.

      Hitler was always frightened that the army would turn on him one day. One example is the aftermath of von Stauffenberg's bomb plot which led to the execution of 150 suspected conspirators-Erwin Rommel included, who was forced to take his own life.

      I don't believe if von Fritsch had carried a pistol in reposnse to threats it would've saved him, no matter how much ammunition he could carry. He would've been very foolish to accept any invitation to attend a meeting with Hitler-it would have been a trap set by the Gestapo.
      But this is what I'm saying that in real life Fritsch went to this meeting with Goering and Hitler and a blackmailer that accused him of being queer and could not even speak in his own defense he was so pissed. He resigned the next day. That's what did happen. Most of the German general officers were highly offended that one of their own was treated this way but Hitler sidetracked them with the Anschluss with Austria. Von Fritsch was later exonerated by a military court and had a parade of honor where Guderian went out of his way to shake his hand. But he was never reinstated to active duty and accompanied his old regiment to Poland as an honorary colonel where he looked for death and found it. That is what did happen. But what do you think would happen if my scenario above holds true?
      Last edited by R. Evans; 14 Feb 07, 15:31.
      Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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      • #4
        "But what do you think would happen if my scenario above holds true?"

        Aside from the nazi leaders there were several hundered thousand in the SS & SA. Plus all the regular party members. They would have reacted badly to the armys actions. The Wehrmacht leaders themselves would have been split on this. Then there were the remaining communist party leaders hidden away & the party members who all remained. I'd think that over the next few weeks both the nazi party members and the communists would be fighting each other in the streets while a outnumbered & confused Wehrmacht tried to restore order. Sounds ugly.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Carl Schwamberg View Post
          "But what do you think would happen if my scenario above holds true?"

          Aside from the nazi leaders there were several hundered thousand in the SS & SA. Plus all the regular party members. They would have reacted badly to the armys actions. The Wehrmacht leaders themselves would have been split on this. Then there were the remaining communist party leaders hidden away & the party members who all remained. I'd think that over the next few weeks both the nazi party members and the communists would be fighting each other in the streets while a outnumbered & confused Wehrmacht tried to restore order. Sounds ugly.
          Ugly for Germany but do you think that it would be ugly for the rest of Europe?
          Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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          • #6
            I see a bloodbath in Germany with the SS seeking revenge on the army. It's a toss-up as to who wins. The worst case is that Heydrich gains control of the SS and the Party AND defeats the army, or at least supresses it.
            I think that this whole scenario would benifit Europe-perhaps averting the war. As for Germany, this would have been a bloodbath

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            • #7
              Originally posted by revans View Post
              I have read in alot of histories of Nazi Germany that before the reunion with Austria that there was only one man that could have forced Hitler out and stopped WW2, Colonel General Werner Freiherr von Fritsch. But he was forced out of his command of the German Army by trumped up charges of homosexuality that were completely baseless and false. Forced out mainly because he disapproved of Nazism and Hitler's policies towards expansion. He was in favor of the Anschluss with Austria and the reoccupation of the Rhineland and also the expansion of the Army but only for the security of Germany's borders. For a few years prior to his resigning, Himmler and Heydrich had tried to cook up several plots to discredit him including one that said he was the leader of a military coup that was planned in 1935. None of them worked until the homosexuality charge which mainly succeeded because of Fritsch's growing opposition to Nazifying the Army. In the real history Fritsch was in a room with Hitler, Goering, and his accuser and became so enraged that he could not even speak to defend himself and resigned later on against the advice of all his friends in the Army. He was later killed in Poland with his old regiment.

              But let's say that he doesn't resign. Instead after years of fending off Himmler and Heydrich he still becomes enraged and starts to carry a gun. With all these plots to unseat him, he is going to defend himself if the Gestapo or the SS come for him. So he goes to the meeting with Hitler and Goering and is confronted with his accuser and the charges of homosexuality, whereupon he pulls his pistol and shoots all three men in the room. He couldn't believe that the Fuhrer would believe such lies and Goering was also angling for his job, so he takes care of all three problems with one shot so to speak. He then picks up the phone, calls General Ludwig Beck(Chief of Staff) and tells him to mobilize the Army and arrest all SS officers, especially Himmler and Heydrich. He has the backing of the Army and the will to use it. Beck had been at him for years to stand up to Hitler, so Beck is on his side. Guderian also likes and respects von Fritsch and will follow his orders along with most of the rest of the officers and men in the Army. The Defense Minister, von Blomberg, at the same time is accused of marrying a *****, so he is also inclined to go along with what has happened and rid Germany of the Nazi rule.

              So now what? German civil war? Or does Germany still unite with Austria but then stays within it's borders? No demands on Czechoslovakia? No demands on Poland? No World War 2?

              Interested to see what everyone thinks.

              Thanks for reading, Bob
              This takes place in 1938, right before the Blomberg-Fritsch Affair, yes?

              Well, if it occurs before the Anschluss, I imagine the fight would be a fairer one. But I think Hitler's popularity after the Anschluss would definetly hurt the army's chance of taking control.

              I think in Germany at this time, Hitler had not filled the army with cronies yet, so there would be enough officers loyal enough to the state to support von Fritsch, especially if Hitler was dead. The army wasn't loyal to Himmler or Heydrich, and at this point I believe the SS still lacked the number of equipped infantry divisions that the army had (only 3 by '41).

              While the country would be filled with pro-nazi symapthizers, I doubt once Hitler was dead and there was a power struggle people would be too willing to stick their necks out.

              So Hitler/Goering are dead, and the army attempts to seize power. The SS resists, but even with a number of sympathizers in the army the weapons and equipment of the army make any fights a one-sided affair. Bloody fights within cities around SS strongholds and barracks cause many causualties and many dollars worth of damage.

              In the end, von Fritsch is succesful, and becomes de Facto Chancellor of Germany. He quickly bans the Nazi party from the Reichstag and begins to plan elections once the Nazi's are suppressed, which could take a few years.

              Anschluss still happens (if it already didn't), but no Sudetenland, no invasion of Poland. Von Fritsch, while like most Europeans has some anti-semetic views at this point, disbands the concentration camps and begins returned what was taken from the Jews back to their families.

              Many Jewish families leave Germany after this, however, fearing that Germany could imprison them again, and under attacks by angry ex-nazi men.

              Germany re-arms, but is keen to avoid a war with the allies, perhaps seeking it's land in Poland diplomatically but with little hope for success.

              Well, that's my take on it.



              Von Fritsch, last Fuehrer of the 3rd Reich?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by daemonofdecay View Post
                This takes place in 1938, right before the Blomberg-Fritsch Affair, yes?

                Well, if it occurs before the Anschluss, I imagine the fight would be a fairer one. But I think Hitler's popularity after the Anschluss would definetly hurt the army's chance of taking control.

                I think in Germany at this time, Hitler had not filled the army with cronies yet, so there would be enough officers loyal enough to the state to support von Fritsch, especially if Hitler was dead. The army wasn't loyal to Himmler or Heydrich, and at this point I believe the SS still lacked the number of equipped infantry divisions that the army had (only 3 by '41).

                While the country would be filled with pro-nazi symapthizers, I doubt once Hitler was dead and there was a power struggle people would be too willing to stick their necks out.

                So Hitler/Goering are dead, and the army attempts to seize power. The SS resists, but even with a number of sympathizers in the army the weapons and equipment of the army make any fights a one-sided affair. Bloody fights within cities around SS strongholds and barracks cause many causualties and many dollars worth of damage.

                In the end, von Fritsch is succesful, and becomes de Facto Chancellor of Germany. He quickly bans the Nazi party from the Reichstag and begins to plan elections once the Nazi's are suppressed, which could take a few years.

                Anschluss still happens (if it already didn't), but no Sudetenland, no invasion of Poland. Von Fritsch, while like most Europeans has some anti-semetic views at this point, disbands the concentration camps and begins returned what was taken from the Jews back to their families.

                Many Jewish families leave Germany after this, however, fearing that Germany could imprison them again, and under attacks by angry ex-nazi men.

                Germany re-arms, but is keen to avoid a war with the allies, perhaps seeking it's land in Poland diplomatically but with little hope for success.

                Well, that's my take on it.



                Von Fritsch, last Fuehrer of the 3rd Reich?
                You are right about 1938. I had forgotten to put the dates for this happening in my original post. And yes, it was before the Anschluss, that being what distracted the Army in real history, from really focusing on what was happening at the top of their command structure.

                Nice post, about what I had in mind. I could not see the leaders of the Army embarking on a conquest of Europe without Hitler pushing them on.
                Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by revans View Post
                  You are right about 1938. I had forgotten to put the dates for this happening in my original post. And yes, it was before the Anschluss, that being what distracted the Army in real history, from really focusing on what was happening at the top of their command structure.

                  Nice post, about what I had in mind. I could not see the leaders of the Army embarking on a conquest of Europe without Hitler pushing them on.
                  Thanks!

                  The only problem I see with removing Hitler is that there is still a lot of resentment over loosing lands in Poland, the Versailles Treaty, etc.

                  So I could see Germany still planning expansion into Poland at a later date, but not for at least a few years after the infighting stopped.

                  Also, one must consider the USSR in this situation. German, is engrossed in it's own civil war while the allies watch intently both Germany and Japans actions. The USSR invades Finland late '39, and by the time the German army regains controll over Germany the Russians are posed to further expand.

                  Would they grab the land thet was historically stipulated in the Molotov-Ribbentropen Pact, or would they be willing to stay put?

                  For some reason, I could imagine the USSR attacking the Baltic states, or even going after Rumania. Germany and/or the allies step in to prevent Soviet expansion, and WW2 starts.

                  Of course, I doubt that Germany would be as effective as they were in World War 2 after a civil war and lots of resentment back home, so I wonder if they would be willing or able to intervene on behalf of some eastern european nation.



                  Alternative History: Fun for Everyone!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by daemonofdecay View Post
                    Thanks!

                    The only problem I see with removing Hitler is that there is still a lot of resentment over loosing lands in Poland, the Versailles Treaty, etc.

                    So I could see Germany still planning expansion into Poland at a later date, but not for at least a few years after the infighting stopped.

                    Also, one must consider the USSR in this situation. German, is engrossed in it's own civil war while the allies watch intently both Germany and Japans actions. The USSR invades Finland late '39, and by the time the German army regains controll over Germany the Russians are posed to further expand.

                    Would they grab the land thet was historically stipulated in the Molotov-Ribbentropen Pact, or would they be willing to stay put?

                    For some reason, I could imagine the USSR attacking the Baltic states, or even going after Rumania. Germany and/or the allies step in to prevent Soviet expansion, and WW2 starts.

                    Of course, I doubt that Germany would be as effective as they were in World War 2 after a civil war and lots of resentment back home, so I wonder if they would be willing or able to intervene on behalf of some eastern european nation.



                    Alternative History: Fun for Everyone!
                    Good reasoning, but does USSR go after Finland without Germany being in Poland in '39? And there is no reason to grab the Baltic states again without an aggressive Germany on Russia's border.

                    Another question arising from this scenario is: Is the German Army going to be the one the fought "Blitkrieg War" or something else? Hitler was the one that let Guderian form and use his tanks like they did. Does von Fritsch and Beck(who fought tooth and nail with Guderian over tank formations) let Guderian have his head and reform the panzer arm like he did? Or do they continue to follow French doctrine and penny packet the tanks among the infantry? (Man, I'm going crazy over all the possible and dizzying ways this could play out )

                    One thing I'm certain about, although von Fritsch was no friend of the Jews, is that there would have been no death camps. He was a soldier, not a murderer.

                    One other thing to consider, these men in this little alternate history were mostly monarchists. Maybe a return of the Kaiser or one of his sons?
                    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by revans View Post
                      Good reasoning, but does USSR go after Finland without Germany being in Poland in '39? And there is no reason to grab the Baltic states again without an aggressive Germany on Russia's border.
                      I just am wondering if Germany would have been agressive. I mean, they would be spending the next few years after the civil war reorganizing the country; fighting the die-hard nazi's, implimenting the new government, etc.

                      It might be the perfect time for Russia to invade Finland. I mean, the Allies would basically stand around watching Germany to prevent her from attacking Poland, and Germany would be in the midst of a civil war.

                      One other thing to consider, these men in this little alternate history were mostly monarchists. Maybe a return of the Kaiser or one of his sons?
                      I was considering that option also, but I was wondering if the new government headed by von Frisch would want a return to monarchy? I mean, didn't many of the Germans blame the Kaiser for loosing WW1?

                      I could be mistaken I guess, and maybe von Frisch adopts the policy of havingthe Kaiser 'head of state' in the same way as the British monarchy.




                      Nice monocle. . . or nice scarring. Which ever.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by daemonofdecay View Post


                        I just am wondering if Germany would have been agressive. I mean, they would be spending the next few years after the civil war reorganizing the country; fighting the die-hard nazi's, implimenting the new government, etc.

                        It might be the perfect time for Russia to invade Finland. I mean, the Allies would basically stand around watching Germany to prevent her from attacking Poland, and Germany would be in the midst of a civil war.



                        I was considering that option also, but I was wondering if the new government headed by von Frisch would want a return to monarchy? I mean, didn't many of the Germans blame the Kaiser for loosing WW1?

                        Also nice picture of the man of discussion. Probably both on the monocle and scar. The scar would probably from duelling, kind of an "in" thing among German officers when they were younger.


                        Also nice picture of the man we are discussing. And it's probably both on the monocle and scar. The scar was probably gotten in a duel, which was fashionable in Germany for a time.

                        I could be mistaken I guess, and maybe von Frisch adopts the policy of havingthe Kaiser 'head of state' in the same way as the British monarchy.




                        Nice monocle. . . or nice scarring. Which ever.



                        So maybe WW2 still gets started only against the USSR rather than Germany? Maybe with von Fritsch in charge and the Nazis out, the Germans ally with England and France to contain Russia?

                        And you're probably right, the monarchy was pretty much dead in Germany, and it would take to long to suppress the Nazis to bring back a Kaiser in any time frame where it would maybe unite the people.
                        Last edited by R. Evans; 18 Feb 07, 11:12.
                        Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by revans View Post
                          So maybe WW2 still gets started only against the USSR rather than Germany? Maybe with von Fritsch in charge and the Nazis out, the Germans ally with England and France to contain Russia?

                          And you're probably right, the monarchy was pretty much dead in Germany, and it would take to long to suppress the Nazis to bring back a Kaiser in any time frame where it would maybe unite the people.
                          So it's 1941, and Germany is still in the aftermath of their civil war, the USSR has taken their section of Finland, and are now face little oposition. Stalin, however, still faces the damages incured from his purges, and only by 1942 does he feel willing an able enough to flex his muscles.

                          Japan, without any allies, refrains from attacking the UK/France, and continues to attack China, which is supported by America, Germany (somewhat) and the allies.

                          1942, Stalin orders Red Army units into the Batltic states on the flimsy grounds that they are filled with partisans raiding into USSR territory. The western states protest the action, but beyond mild sanctions do nothing to stop Russia.

                          Stalin is emboldened by this move, and his next step is to demand territory from Rumania, which quickly agrees. Fearing the belligerent Russia, Poland sends most of it's military east to face Russia.

                          1943, Japan defeats the last major Chinese army, and forces favorable terms on China. Japane now controls more of the north and the costal regions. Germany is begining to pull it's self together.

                          Russia demands territory from Poland, Poland refuses. Russia invades Poland in early summer. The allies declare war on Russia, and begin amassing their forces. Germany doesn't allow allied armies to pass through their territory but does allow allied ships to sail through their territorial waters and resupply at their ports (for a fee, or course). Poland is quickly pushed back by the vast numbers of Russian troops and their tanks, most notably the few T-34s.

                          However, Russia sustains large numbers of casualties, and America immediatly stops all trade with the Soviet Union.

                          Japan, flush with their victory and not facing any immediate threat, considers it's next move. The allies are engaged in war, and distracted, but Russia is also open distracted. The Japanese either attack Russia to ensure their dominance in the region, or go after the allies (more historically plausible). I think they would go for the allies, but that's me.

                          Allied troops land in Poland to reinforce the Polish line at the Vistula River, but the Russian troops gradually force a bridgehead in the south near Radom.

                          Over the next three months, Russian troops slowly force their way north, pushing the allies back towards Danzing.

                          Fleeing allied armies escape over the German border, as Germany looks on. Knowing that they need to stop russian agression, the German government uses the threat of communism to unite the ex-nazis and rest of population. Germany uses it's armed forces, which are armed mainly with Pz.3s and a few Pz.4s, to 'intervene' in Poland, striking the Russian's left flank and striking a serious blow to the Russians. However, the German high-command does not adopt the pure blitzkrieg doctrines espoused by a few generals, but instead create a bastardization where some tanks blitz while others are used in the French/English/Russian manner.

                          The German's suprise move ensircles large numbers of Russian prisoners, and the allied forces in Poland begin doing much better now that they don't have to have supplies shipped through the Baltic. Russia, however, is now on a war footing, and is churning out vast numbers of T-34s but lacks many basics like trucks and water-proof telegraph wires, etc.

                          The allied forces of Germany, Poland, the UK, and France push the Russians back to the Vistula, while an allied force conducts a landing in Murmansk, pushing south along with the Finns, who decide to take back lost territory. Facing these threats, Russia makes a treaty with Japan, who attacks allied holdings in the east.

                          Distracted, the British send ships to asia but are destroyed when they underestimate the Japanese strength. US cuts off fuel and steel shipments to Japan.

                          Russia is slowly forced back from the river, but still enjoys an advantage in armor, the French using slower and somewhat inferior tanks. The Germans begin mass-producing their Pz.4s, but develop a new tank dubbed the Pather (no Tiger without Hitler, sorry!). The Pather begins racking up an impressive record, and has less problems with it's design due to the time taken to enure it's success.

                          1944. Russia is gathering vast numbers of tanks, rocket artillery, and infantry for their next assault. The attack in Finland is halted by a number of Russian soldiers and tanks, but they have sealed off Russia's northern ports. Rumania joins the allies along with a few other european minors, and atempts to take back lost territory.

                          Japan has taken Singapore and now attacks the Dutch East-Indies, bringing the Netherlands into the war.

                          The US looses a president, and continues to act as the 'arsenal of democracy', while slowly developing a secret weapon that could ensure the dominance of the US for years to come.



                          More later. Maybe. Dod is a lazy man.
                          Last edited by Daemon of Decay; 19 Feb 07, 11:36.

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                          • #14
                            OK, class has been cancled withot telling me.

                            Anyway, to resume my tale:

                            1944 sees the allies fend off another massive Soviet counterattack, this one pushing the allies back far enough to seize Warsaw. The Soviets immediatly begin reinforcing the city, turning it into a massive fortification along the entire section of that river.

                            Some Allied forces, redirected to Finland now that Germany has entered the war, renew that advance, and by the end of summer have reached Leningrad. The Royal navy and Kriegsmarine conduct naval bombardments of the city, while the French navy supports a landing in the Crimean. Russia now faces 3 fronts of combat. However, as winter aproaches, the Soviets counter these attacks, unable to dislodge the sieging army around Leningrad, the Russians do defeat the armies in the Crimean who were stuck on the russian fortifications, but most of the men escape to the French transports to Rumania.

                            By 1945, hundreds of thousands lay dead in the fields of Poland, which has begun to resemble the battles of WW1. Japan has defeated the allied thrusts towards their holdings there, and feel confident of continuing to hold them. Japan now considers attacking the US, but feel that the increased industry of the US pose a critical threat.

                            German Generals like Guderian finally convince the higher ups to persue the blitzkrieg tactis in full, and in the spring the German forces strike through the south, tearing a huge gap in the Russian lines. Turning north, the German panzers encircle the million men along the Vistula and in Warsaw, as the rest of their forces push through the gap to continue the encirclement.

                            Panthers and T-34/85s duel relentlessly, but the superior German training and equipment wins out against the numerically superior Russians. The infantry of Germany and Poland finish the encirclment, and turn east as Stalin arranges a hasty force to oppose them.

                            Leningrad finally falls to the besiegers, and now the allies move north to liberate the Baltic states and cut off russian troops there.

                            By summer, the allies are now clearly in Russian territory. Russian units now have the heavier Josef Stalin tanks, and the allies are foced to create larger tanks to defeat it's armor. Rumania and the other minors push the USSR back, and slowly crawl towards the oil fields of the south.

                            The USSR is now caught between the might of the European powers, and even massive numbers of men and tanks can stop them. However, winter and the cold and mud slow the allies down, but not enough tostop their advance.

                            1946 sees the soviets with most of their experienced units surrendering in the Polish pocket and in the Baltic states, and the allies advancing on Moscow. Stalin moves his industry further inwards, but his armies are unable to stop the advance.

                            Allied armies are now paying a higher price, but are supported by many of the suppressed groups in the USSR. The Ukrainians and 'White-Russians' are liberated and quickly contribute a few German and French eqipped divisions.

                            That summer, Stalin is killed in a military coup by disgruntled Generals (supported by power hungry NKVD elements) who quickly offer terms of surrender to the allies, who reject them and demand unconditional surrender.

                            The next week, the Russians accept, and lay down their arms. The USSR is no more, as the allies split up Russia into it's many member states. Next the allies turn their attention to Japan, who sees their only ally disapear.

                            Guaging their position, the Japanes feel confident they could inflict massive casualties on the allies, but also feer the relativly undamaged fleets of France, UK, and Germany (whose new flagship, the Graf Zepplin, has just become active).

                            Germany, however, does not have a beef with China and leads an effort to create peace between the powers. Japane is told to return all lands back to the allies, and has to return a number of lands back to the Chinese.

                            Japan negotiates further, and finally accepts the peace terms with a single change: that they are able to hold onto the Chinese lands for 50 more years, and has rights to a naval base on Chinese territory. China, effectively a Japanese puppet, has little say in the matter.

                            So, by late 1946 peace is back, the US is finishing development on the nuclear bomb, and the European powers are flush with victory. The European nations, feeling very close after such a hard fought war, begin laying the foundation for a European Union, the League of Nations idea falling behind.

                            The US, even though it had supplied bast amounts of material and supplies to the allies, is still notconsidered a world power despite it having the worlds largest economy, and is helping to finance the recontruction of Poland and the bringing of capitalism to the ex-USSR nation states. However, the US does possess one secret weapon: the nuclear bomb.

                            The war is less costly by millions than WW2 historically was, and we see a move for European cooperation that would make there be 3 world powers in the post war era: The EU (with more military integration that it's historic counterpart), the US, and Japan (in order of strength).



                            I think he's wrong.

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                            • #15
                              This is for Daemonofdecay, as I didn't want to quote all of your previous 2 posts, MY GOD, I've created a MONSTER!! I all of it. Very believable. You must have had some free time. If you are into this stuff there is another thread called Shattered World that gives you a link to something along these lines that is pretty interesting reading.

                              Now a question to your posts, the US did not send troops to Europe in the scenario, just materials and money?
                              Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

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