Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Battle of Berlin - Western Allies

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Battle of Berlin - Western Allies

    A simple, yet complex question - what if it was left to the Western Allied coalition, and not the Red Army, to finish off the third Reich by taking Berlin?

    What would such a battle be like? How would the allies plan to take the city? What units would be involved in the struggle? Would some of the less motivated units be more willing to surrender, as the Western Allies didn't have a reputation for mass rape and slaughter like the Red Army? Would Hitler still commit suicide, or would there be the possibility of the Allies killing him or taking him alive for a war crimes trial!

    Discuss!
    Last edited by Thunderbolt; 03 Feb 07, 13:26. Reason: Spelling.

  • #2
    Hitler would have committed suicide anyway, he committed suicide because he knew the cause was lost, not because he feared the russians. As for units involved Ike would have had Bradley hit from the south and Monty from the north. Realistically, that means Patton would have been in the city before any other allied general. But George may not have been able to take the city without help, after all, Zhukov needed lots of troops to do it.

    On the flip side, Stalin would have sent troops into Berlin as fast as possible, just so the Western allies weren't the only ones liberating Berlin.

    Comment


    • #3
      This is the scenario that worried Stalin. Hitler would still have committed suicide, probably wasn't up for the lengthy trial. I believe the Germans would have capitulated sooner to Allied forces, and there would not have been the tenacious street to street, building to building fight.

      Allied could have used airborne forces to make the initial real estate claim, with a quick ground link-up. It would have to have been done quickly, because Stalin would have raced the Allies for a piece of the action.
      Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by grognard View Post
        ... As for units involved Ike would have had Bradley hit from the south and Monty from the north. Realistically, that means Patton would have been in the city before any other allied general. But George may not have been able to take the city without help, after all, Zhukov needed lots of troops to do it.....
        Hmmm,....I doubt Patton would have been sent in from the south at all, seeing that he was aimed into the southern half of Germany. The allied army line-up from north to south was Br 2nd Army, US 9th Army, US 1st Army, US 3rd Army. US 9th Army was aimed at the western approaches and US 1st Army was already headed towards the north of Leipzig and would have been the one to turn north against the southern approaches. Third Army's mission would most likely have been the same that it was ever since Normandy, guarding the flank of the main drive by Hodges' and Simpson's main drive. If required, divisions could have been tranferred from Patton's army to reinforce the two main thrust armies if they were required for the fight in the city. Agree with RNA on the use of 4 or 5 airborne divs (if lift was available).

        The actual fight itself would proabably have been a far bloddier re-run of Aachen. Casualties would have been very heavy but the intensity of the fighting would have been less except from the SS units.
        The Purist

        Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

        Comment


        • #5
          If you are talking a quick as possible attack to Berlin then I think that Patton would have been put in charge. Montgomery and Hodges had already proven that they were not masters of fast moving warfare. If the attack comes after months more of broad front strategy, then it would play out much like the Purist states with far greater casualties. But the casualty lists might have forced a different strategy from political higher ups. England was just about at the end of the manpower rope, and the US was never fond of taking large casualties. Plus the fact that if the war dragged on, the US had a president in Truman(that was willing to use it) and a weapon in the A-Bomb that could end the war in a day and so it might have been dropped on Berlin. I do believe that if the casualties and time were going against the US and England that Truman would have dropped it.
          Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

          Comment


          • #6
            assuming the allied (US most probably) get to Berlin first - only way would be of course of a massive screw up from the russians. perhaps a successful eastern Wacht am rhein and then a silly move by Zhukov, etc.

            I think that, it would still be a tough battle - like in aachen, on a grander scale, perhaps costing the US 100'000 additional casualties, as some die-hard german units would fight to the death.

            but most german troops would have surrendered rather than fight. they knew by then than surrendering to the western allies was not synonym of death in a Gulag or vicious treatement.

            berlin would be smashed, more by tactical and strategic air than artillery, but civilians would be treated vastly better than under the soviets in the days of the conquest.

            and Stalin would be super angry, but could not do anything. partition in europe was done before anyways, so he would still have gotten what he wanted, but would have had to be nicer and would not have had the prestige to get the city, hence a softer policy in the late 40's.


            but this is obviously a highly unlikely what if, as the Soviet Army in 1944-1945 was a superb fighting machine and in such overwhelming power that nothing could stop it.
            "Freedom cannot exist without discipline, self-discipline, and rights cannot exist without duties. Those who do not observe their duties do not deserve their rights."--Oriana Fallaci

            Comment


            • #7
              The 1945 Soviet army had also reached the bottom of the barrel on manpower. Still plenty, but not enough reserves to replace all the possible casualties.

              But even with that, you are right in saying it was unstoppable in 1945.

              Comment


              • #8
                I think the western allies could have taken Germany--all the way to the Polish Border-encircling Berlin, not getting involved in a street fight as they rush up to the city. Once the city is encircled, it's all over. Yes, there would still be German troops holding out to the very end of thier strength and resources, which be very long once the city was surrounded.
                I'm not sure that I agree that the Russians were unstopable in 45...they were at the bottom of the barrel...they were dependant on our lend lease to a larger extent than they wanted to admit. They suffered 100,000 dead (by some estimates) in the last battle for Germany...this were inflicted by a German army that was below the bottom of the barrel in every aspect of warmaking ability. I think that the western allies, had they the political will, could have defeated the Soviets in a battle for Germany and Poland. I'm not saying it would be easy or even one sided, but I think they could have done it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Para,

                  The Red Army had some 12.5 million troops in the field in 1945. they were backed by over 15,000 tanks, 15,000+ aircraft and over 100,000 artillery pieces and rocket launchers. This is no second-rate force by any stretch of the imagination.

                  Russian reliance on Lend-Lease was mainly trucks, radios and other non-combat items. When it came to tanks, artillery, aircraft and infantry weapons the vast majority of equipment was Russian made. Unless the west had an answer to 10,000 T-34/85 tanks, risking a fight with the Red Army over a political objective would have been senseless.

                  The allies were going to honour the 1944 agreement on occupation zones so going further than was necessary was not a requirement for finishing the war in Europe.Eisenhower made the right choice even if the USSR did not live up to its agreements later on.
                  The Purist

                  Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assault of thoughts on the unthinking - John Maynard Keynes.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The reason the Russian had so many tanks and artillery pieces is because they didn't have to build trucks, railroad engines, commo gear, etc., this all came from the US. Not to mention the millions of rations of food!

                    The Russians earned and deserved the right to take Berlin but I don't think they were unstoppable. They had never seen an airforce like the Allies possessed, so if there was a falling out, I think that the western Allies would have more than held their own.
                    Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by revans View Post
                      Not to mention the millions of rations of food!
                      Which the Russian soldiers nicknamed, "The Second Front".
                      Leadership is the ability to rise above conventional wisdom.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        There was a brief period of time when Berlin was essentially undefended. Two American divisions (83rd Inf and 2nd Arm IIRC) had reached the Elbe. Eisenhower gave the stop order.

                        There was nothing between them and Berlin and most of Berlin's defenders had been sent East. The allies also thought about a parachute drop on Berlin.

                        It is likely that Berlin could have been taken by the Western allies cheaply and easily if Eishenhower had given the order.

                        See any of the books about the battle of Berlin for exact details.

                        Interestingly Stalin had ordered that any American unit approaching Berlin was to be "accidentally" shelled to keep them out.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by revans View Post
                          The Russians earned and deserved the right to take Berlin but I don't think they were unstoppable. They had never seen an airforce like the Allies possessed, so if there was a falling out, I think that the western Allies would have more than held their own.
                          And the Western Allies have never seen an Army like the RKKA .

                          I think when considering this scenario people badly overestimate the influence of the Allied air forces. Throughout World War II, Korea and Vietnam Western air forces backed themselves to be able to stop enemy ground forces through interdiction campaigns and with a few exceptions uniformly failed. If the RKKA has time to mass properly, the damage will be done long before the Allied air forces can exert themselves in the fight - in the end their contribution will be to decide whether or not the RKKA can logistically complete the big encirclement battles of the remaining Allied armies once the initial push is complete.
                          Colonel Summers' widely quoted critique of US strategy in the Vietnam War is having a modest vogue...it is poor history, poor strategy, and poor Clausewitz to boot - Robet Komer, Survival, 27:2, p. 94.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The Russians had plenty of airpower to take on the western air forces. Mustangs agaionst Yak 7s and 9s is no pushover either way.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              But which side had the better planes and the better pilots
                              "You can tell a lot about a fella's character by whether he picks out all of one color or just grabs a handful." -explaining why Reagan liked to have a jar of jelly beans on hand for important meetings

                              CO for 1st S.INC Shock Security Troop

                              Comment

                              Latest Topics

                              Collapse

                              Working...
                              X