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USA without Great Britain in WW2 ?

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  • USA without Great Britain in WW2 ?

    If Germany had invaded and occupied Great Britain in 40 after the operation Sealion, what could have been the America’s attitude ?
    With the British out it seems that America wouldn’t have intervene in Europe and would have let it to the Germans. But yet the USA couldn’t stay outside the WW2, the Japanese attacking them at Pearl Harbor. So what would have been the American attitude in Europe after that Hitler has declared the war to her ? It would have been difficult for the USA to invade Europe without Great Britain. They would have certainly helped USSR, but let all Europe to communism wouldn’t have been a pleasant perspective.
    A solution could have been to send troops in Egypt before the Axis invade it after the fall or Great Britain and start a conquest of Europe from that place. Certainly not easy.
    Or would the US have decided to forget Europe and to make her future with Asia ?

    LaPalice.
    Monsieur de La Palice est mort
    Mort devant Pavie.
    Un quart d'heure avant sa mort
    Il était encore en vie...

  • #2
    Salut, M. de la Palice. It seems that you are very interested in WW2. I don't know how to answer you. If my memory is good the USA was attacked by Japan and Germany declared war to her.

    Think that the German reason to declare war was probably fighting American merchant ships carrying supplies for the British on the Atlantic Ocean. If Germany had occupied Great Britain, this Atlantic traffic would not have existed, so maybe Germany wouldn't have declared war to the USA. Probably the Americans would have been in war with Japan only.

    We will never have the answer to this kind of "what if" questions. But here you have another one: what if Japan had attacked the USSR instead of the USA?
    Cual lidian bien, sobre dorado arzón
    Mio Cid Ruy Diaz, el buen lidiador;
    Minaya Alvar Fáńez, que en Zorita mandó;
    Martín Antolínez, el burgalés de pro...!

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Minaya
      Salut, M. de la Palice. It seems that you are very interested in WW2. I don't know how to answer you. If my memory is good the USA was attacked by Japan and Germany declared war to her.

      Think that the German reason to declare war was probably fighting American merchant ships carrying supplies for the British on the Atlantic Ocean. If Germany had occupied Great Britain, this Atlantic traffic would not have existed, so maybe Germany wouldn't have declared war to the USA. Probably the Americans would have been in war with Japan only.

      We will never have the answer to this kind of "what if" questions. But here you have another one: what if Japan had attacked the USSR instead of the USA?
      Of course I am interested in WW2, I am a wargamer .

      Concerning Japan, it seems it was impossible for her to not enter in war with America. The problem was when.

      Edit : I promise you I will search subject "outside" WW2 .

      LaPalice.
      Last edited by LaPalice; 08 Feb 04, 10:02.
      Monsieur de La Palice est mort
      Mort devant Pavie.
      Un quart d'heure avant sa mort
      Il était encore en vie...

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      • #4
        Originally posted by LaPalice
        .

        Edit : I promise you I will search subject "outside" WW2 .

        LaPalice.
        Please, go on with WW2. I find it a fascinating subject, besides you have begun very interesting threads on the subject (Pétain, France as a victor or this one).
        Cual lidian bien, sobre dorado arzón
        Mio Cid Ruy Diaz, el buen lidiador;
        Minaya Alvar Fáńez, que en Zorita mandó;
        Martín Antolínez, el burgalés de pro...!

        Comment


        • #5
          Perhaps Germany and the USA would have been at war with each other anyways, because of the Tripartite Pact. Even thought the pact meant little in real terms, if Japan attacked the USA after Britain had been defeated, would Germany have joined Japan in a war against the USA? Or would they have thrown everything against Russia?

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          • #6
            I think with Great Britian out of the war Germany would have built up a big navy which the US would have had to keep an eye on. This would have split the US navy between the Pacific and Atlantic. If this happen the US would have a very hard time getting anywhere with anything because Germany and Japan would rule the seas. But if they did attack they could take West Africa and use that as a base to jump into Europe.
            But if the US hadn't gotten invovled in the war I think Germany would have built up its navy to keep the US at bay and from suppling the USSR and then they would attack Russia with every thing they had.

            Thats just my humble opionon.

            Thanks for looking!!

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            • #7
              I used to say that the Battle of Britain saved our modern democratic civilisation (and hold up the Spitfire as the tool which we all owe it to), because if the RAF was crushed Hitler would have invaded Great Britain and left the Americas to fortify themselves. But there seems to be some contention about whether the Wehrmacht could actually have succeeded even with air superiority.

              Anyway the British government would have evacuated to Canada, prompting the US to accept that it was going to be next unless they aggressively defended their approaches. Offensive thoughts would not have been possible until the Germans had been weakened by the Soviets, and I think that greater alertness would have prevented the Pearl Harbour disaster. Fortress America would be a distinct possibility but beating back the Axis may only have been achieved via nuclear weapons.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by SoccerDJ
                I think with Great Britian out of the war Germany would have built up a big navy which the US would have had to keep an eye on. This would have split the US navy between the Pacific and Atlantic. If this happen the US would have a very hard time getting anywhere with anything because Germany and Japan would rule the seas. But if they did attack they could take West Africa and use that as a base to jump into Europe.
                But if the US hadn't gotten invovled in the war I think Germany would have built up its navy to keep the US at bay and from suppling the USSR and then they would attack Russia with every thing they had.

                Thats just my humble opionon.
                In Gerhard L Weinberg's excellent book "A World At Arms: A Global History of WW II" he describes this very effect.
                The book describes how strategic decisions made in one theatre of war affected or WERE affected by strategic decisions made in other theatres of war; including political decisions.

                In relation to the above quote, he descibes how Germany changed her industrial priorities over the course of the war and relates those priorities to events that occured throughout the conflict. For instance, there are (IIRC) 3 separate times that industrial priorities were concentrated on the Navy to allow Germany to take on the US in anticipation of victory on the European continent.
                Scientists have announced they've discovered a cure for apathy. However no one has shown the slightest bit of interest !!

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                • #9
                  Is this discussion assuming that the Royal Navy has been severly crippled? A relatively intact Royal Navy would still have been quite a thorn in Hitler's side, operating from bases in Canada and potentially Iceland.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Prester John
                    I used to say that the Battle of Britain saved our modern democratic civilisation (and hold up the Spitfire as the tool which we all owe it to),
                    It was actually the Hurricane that was more numerous and bore the brunt of the fighting in the Battle of Britain.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Martin Schenkel
                      It was actually the Hurricane that was more numerous and bore the brunt of the fighting in the Battle of Britain.
                      The Hurricane was more numerous and generally had the role of attacking the bombers. The Spitfire had the role of tackling the fighter escorts, and making the way for the Hurricane's. It was the Spitfire which defeated the German fighters and allowed the destruction of the bombers.

                      Fighter Command Serviceable Aircraft as at 0900 hours, 15th September 1940

                      * Blenheim - 47
                      * Spitfire - 192
                      * Hurricane - 389
                      * Defiant - 24
                      * Gladiator - 8
                      * Total - 660
                      Last edited by Prester John; 09 Feb 04, 03:39.

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                      • #12
                        I think that Germany might have declared war on the US nevertheless.

                        On of the ideas behind the declaration of war was that the Germans wanted the Japanese to participate in operations against the Soviet Union --> open an eastern front (from the Soviet p.o.v.).

                        Of course this desire to have another front is connected to the course of Operation Barbarossa wich might have succeded initially as more troops from the west were available.
                        "A platoon of Chinese tanks viciously attacked a Soviet harvester,
                        which was peacefully working a field near the Soviet-Chinese border.
                        The harvester returned fire and upon destroying the enemy
                        returned to its home base."

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                        • #13
                          The possibility of Britain being knocked out of the war was definitely considered by American leadership. The United States was determined to continue fighting Germany even after the fall of the British Isles, for as long as practical and possible.

                          For instance, Convair's B-36 Peacemaker strategic bomber, designed from 1941 at great cost, was conceived for the sole purpose of launching attacks on Germany from Greenland and Iceland should Britain be invaded and defeated.


                          "Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a ugly brawl."
                          --Frederick II, King of Prussia

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                          • #14
                            There is another option : instead of being invaded, Great Britain decided to make peace with Germany just after the fall of France. But this time it is sure that one day or another Great Britain would have re-start a war with Germany.

                            LaPalice.
                            Monsieur de La Palice est mort
                            Mort devant Pavie.
                            Un quart d'heure avant sa mort
                            Il était encore en vie...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LaPalice
                              There is another option : instead of being invaded, Great Britain decided to make peace with Germany just after the fall of France. But this time it is sure that one day or another Great Britain would have re-start a war with Germany.

                              LaPalice.
                              I don't think that the British would make peace. But if they did I have a feeling that part of Hitlers terms would be occupation cause he wouldn't just let Great Britain sit and build up a big military.
                              But lets say they made peace with no strings attach. I think Hitler would then attack Russia with most of its military. At that point Britain would realize that they could trust Hitler cause if he broke his pact with Stalin then he would certantly do that with the British. So they would be forced to relize they had to make war on Germany.
                              Thank God no of this happen and they war went the way it did.

                              Thanks for looking!!

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